A R Sales m1a question

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42GPW
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A R Sales m1a question

Post by 42GPW » Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:43 pm

So I recently purchased and M1A that says AR sales on the receiver, made in El Monte California mark IV cal .308 serial number is 011_. It has all Springfield Parts on it plus a usgi stock, the fun switch area was filled in on the wood. And no bayonet lug in the flash hider. I have no information on this rifle can somebody enlighten me and give me some knowledge whether I did good or not? I paid $1400.

Matt R
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Re: A R Sales m1a question

Post by bharr45 » Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:37 pm

AR Sales was a business set up in about 1971 to produce semi M14s. They produced two lots of about 250 guns each in 1974 and 1976. They used surplus M14 parts (as yours seems to corroborate this). Quality was reported to be good. About the same time, National Ordnance and Federal Ordnance started up a short distance away also in El Monte. Whether they were competition or whatever, employees seemed to work at either or both (or all three). I think lack of demand with the three mnfgs having the same product caused insufficent revenueI recall all three businesses (or assets) being purchased by Numrich Arms in the late 80's or early 90's. Don't know if this helps but I would think the price is reasonable, may be collector interest if someone was collecting various mnfgs. When Uncle Joe does something about guns, the value probably skyrocket....my 2 cents worth.

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Re: A R Sales m1a question

Post by 42GPW » Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:41 pm

Great! Thank you for the information.

Matt R
1947 cj2a
1956 dj-3a dispatcher
1946 t3c
U.S Army (11C3P2B) 1989-2006
82nd Abn, 1st Gulf War Vet
101st Abn oif/oef Vet
2ID Korea
40th Inf
45th Inf

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Re: A R Sales m1a question

Post by Urban Camo » Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:50 pm

a little more info.
Bob Penney is still alive at the ripe old age of 93. Just saw him this afternoon.

A. R. Sales was owned by Elia Karnes. Bob Penny, a business partner of Elia’s husband, Jack Karnes, may have also been involved with A. R. Sales. Jack Karnes, his wife Elia, and their children ran the company.
Ford Motor Company was formed on June 16, 1903 by Henry Ford and eleven other business associates. In 1925, Ford Motor Company bought Lincoln Motor Company, a manufacturer of luxury automobiles. For the 1972 model year, Lincoln introduced the Mark IV two-door luxury sport coupe. The Mark IV was longer, wider and slightly lighter than its very popular predecessor; the Lee Iacocca designed Lincoln Mark III. The 1972 Mark IV was Ford’s answer to General Motors Corporation’s Cadillac Eldorado and was a major success for Ford Motor Company. Lincoln Mark IV automobile production ended with the 1976 model year. Mr. Maunz was impressed with the plush style of the 1972 Lincoln Mark IV. Thus, he suggested to A. R. Sales that its semi-automatic M14 receiver be named Mark IV.

It appears that A. R. Sales started on the semi-automatic M14 type rifle project in October, 1971. There were two production lots, one in 1974 and the other in 1976. The first production lot of Mark IV receivers was cast at Rimer Casting Company using Karl Maunz’s receiver master die. The second production batch of Mark IV receivers was cast at Gray-Syracuse, Inc. and machined by Valley Ordnance Co. The first lot of receiver serial numbers ended somewhere between 1 and 225. The receiver serial numbers for the second lot were started at a number below 225 and ended at number 450. Twenty-five serial numbers were skipped between the first lot and the second lot. Mr. Maunz’s receiver master die was also used to produce receiver castings for National Ordnance semi-automatic M14 type rifles (see below). A. R. Sales Mark IV receivers are of decent quality. 2 A. R. Sales was sold off some time after the second production run of Mark IV rifles in 1976.

At the same time, in the early 1970s, when A. R. Sales was developing its Mark IV receiver, John Arnold was pursuing the same goal of manufacturing and marketing his own semi-automatic M14 type receiver. Mr. Arnold owned National Ordnance, Inc., a firearm manufacturing company, and Federal Ordnance, a firearm parts and ammunition supplier. Mr. Wyant Lamont, Jr., managed the day-to-day operations of National Ordnance. The two sister businesses were located adjacent to one another on Alpaca Street at Potrero Avenue in South El Monte, CA, about one-quarter mile from A. R. Sales. From 1965 to 1970, National Ordnance produced 22,500 newly manufactured M1903A3 receivers and assembled them into complete rifles using USGI surplus parts. National Ordnance also manufactured 2000 M1 Garand welded and investment cast receivers and an unknown number of M1 Carbine investment cast receivers in the 1960s.

A very small number of National Ordnance stamped semi-automatic M14 type rifles were produced. The receivers were investment cast by Rimer Casting Co but machined by another Ohio business. National Ordnance appears to have gone out of business about 1974 or shortly thereafter with the death of Mr. Arnold. As part of the liquidation of the company’s assets, assembled M14 type rifles and parts kits were sold off. The author is not aware of any collaboration that existed between A. R. Sales and National Ordnance on M14 receiver development.

Bob Brenner restarted Federal Ordnance by no later than 1982. Jack Karnes went to work for Bob Brenner when Federal Ordnance was revived. In early 1982, Federal Ordnance had plans to produce M1 Garand Rifles using newly manufactured receivers. By 1987, Federal Ordnance was located at 1443 Potrero Avenue South El Monte, CA 91733. It sold military surplus firearms. Federal Ordnance also sold lightweight alloy M1911 style pistol frames marketed under its name and a trade name as well as selling a Springfield Armory, Inc. high-end M1911 style pistol. Reportedly, the lightweight alloy M1911 style pistol frames were originally marketed by A. R. Sales in the early 1970s.
The company began importing Chinese made rifles, changed the name to Century Arms and moved to Canada. They went out of business in 1992.

And this;
Federal Ordnance Ranger 1911A1 GI was manufactured from 1988-1992 and patterned after the Colt 1911A1 Gov't Model. It consisted of all-steel construction with a 5" barrel, 7-shot magazine and checkered walnut grips. The 1911A1 GI model was only chambered in .45 ACP. In excellent condition this handgun could be worth about $310-$385. Slight premiums would be added for the Extended Model, Ambo, or Lite Model variants
...and from Oldguns.net:

Back in the late 1960's and early 1970's across the street from National Ordnance Co., there existed a small manufacturer named AR Sales. They made 1911 frames (aluminum), re-welded Garand receivers, and made their own M 14 type rifle that was called the Mark IV (I think). As I remember it was owned by a woman named Ilia Karnes. Her husband, Jack Karnes, was the machinist. Do you know what happened to this company? Any idea how many M 14 type rifles they made?

Answer:
Joe- Good history lesson, and excellent question. I do not know the answer. I suspect that you could find out if you gained access to the BATF records in West Virginia for out of business manufacturers. I have not idea how (un)cooperative they may be in responding to a request for such information, or even copies of the records themselves. I had heard that someone was able to make copies of the old Ithaca Gun Company records from WW2, but am not sure that was the source. Maybe if you made it a "Freedom of Information Act" request or had a lawyer request it "to research manufacturing quantities" related to some case they would be more likely to respond. Who knows? John Spangler

UPDATE: (12/19/04) It turns out that the Karnes' son read this and kindly provided the following information:
"I was looking thru you site when I came accress this question. I have first hand info on this subject as both Ilia and Jack Karnes are my parents. I grew up watching and learning while these rifles were built. AR Sales Co made 225 rifles all total the serial range was 0001 to 0199 and 0220 to 0245. The skip in the middle was for test rifles and tooling models. The rifles were all built using USGI parts and checked with Goverment gauges than test fired. The manufacturing end was disolved at the time of my perents divorce in 1979. Hope this clears some fog on this little but proud company. Thanks Steve Karnes "

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Re: A R Sales m1a question

Post by Urban Camo » Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:56 pm

So basically you have 1 of only 225 made.
Nice score!!

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Re: A R Sales m1a question

Post by 42GPW » Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:03 am

Great info. I have #0133.
1947 cj2a
1956 dj-3a dispatcher
1946 t3c
U.S Army (11C3P2B) 1989-2006
82nd Abn, 1st Gulf War Vet
101st Abn oif/oef Vet
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Re: A R Sales m1a question

Post by W. Winget » Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:17 am

I think if you looked the fact that it's USGI parts alonw would make it worth the $1400, let alone the heritage.
V/R W. Winget
Looking for 1918 Standard B 'Liberty' truck parts


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