BATFE rules for making dummy guns

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semberae
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BATFE rules for making dummy guns

Post by semberae » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:32 pm

Does anyone know what the BATFE rules are for making dummy guns? I want to make a dummy 1919A4 to display with my GPW. The only real parts to be used will be the barrel jacket/booster, top cover, handle, cocking lever, and trigger. The rest will be made out of plate steel, angle iron, square tubing, and whatever scrap I got laying around. I can’t find any info on the BATFE web sight. Any help will be appreciated.
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Re: BATFE rules for making dummy guns

Post by DDTrustee » Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:11 pm

If it has no receiver it is not a gun and therefore not regulated by them.....all the parts you want but no receiver..... If it has a receiver then the rules change and you have to begin thinking about cutting holes in barrels and chambers to be within the letter of the law.... But even that is not entirely correct because if you have a receiver and screw a solid rod into it that has a hole in the end but does not go all the way through so that bullet could be fired - again you have a non-gun. The true definition of a dummy gun is anything that cannot shoot a projectile...hence starter pistols though loaded with a cartridge and fire comes out; are non-guns and unregulated and need not be serialized.
The less than bright regulators have recently issued a 115+ or - page definition of what a gun is; everything else is a non-gun......!!!

here is the actual 'current' definition. Some interpretation required!!!

Defined Under: 18 U.S.C., § 921(a)(3)
This section is intended to provide basic guidance in understanding firearm terminology. Please bear in mind that these illustrations do not necessarily depict importable firearms.
The term “Firearm” means:
Any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
B. The frame or receiver of any such weapon;
C. Any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or
D. Any destructive device.

Firearm Frame or Receiver
That part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel, is considered a firearm per 27 CFR § 478.11.
--- This is per the ATF
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/impo ... rearm.html
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/impo ... rearm.html
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Re: BATFE rules for making dummy guns

Post by D_Conrad » Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:15 pm

Not trying to hijack a thread, but I have a live fire 1919. I was thinking of getting a shot our barrel and welding the chamber of the barrel to not allow any round to seat for shows which do not allow weapons. Would that qualify as a dummy? Or would the bolt assembly need to be removed as well.
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Re: BATFE rules for making dummy guns

Post by DDTrustee » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:11 pm

As a lawyer and 2A guy; if it cannot shoot even if there are real gun parts attached...its a NON-GUN. This is likely an ATF type definition.
I think DUMMY might be a a bit more of a look alike WITHOUT any action or numbers of live gun parts. The film industry here in NM makes that distinction.....e.g. PROP GUN is one that will not fire in its present configuration (e.g. pin in the chamber and barrel, or no hole in the barrel, or no chamber for cartridges to be installed.... a DUMMY GUN is a look alike that can never be made to fire because it has no parts that will accomplish that.
Trouble is a non-gun person will never know a real gun from a dummy from a cap pistol.... get a 3/32" dowel and paint the end red and stick in in the barrel suing some tape around the dowel to hold it in place... That will tell people it is a dummy (but be sure not to let it slip into the barrel (or have a kid push it in) before the next time you take it to the range!)
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Re: BATFE rules for making dummy guns

Post by Bart1015 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:49 am

D_Conrad wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:15 pm
Not trying to hijack a thread, but I have a live fire 1919. I was thinking of getting a shot our barrel and welding the chamber of the barrel to not allow any round to seat for shows which do not allow weapons. Would that qualify as a dummy? Or would the bolt assembly need to be removed as well.
It is still considered a real gun. The receiver is the "gun", even if all of the internal parts are removed.

But with that said, I also have a simi-auto 1919a4 and when I have it mounted on my jeep, I do install a barrel with the chamber welded shut just as you suggest. I also taped the very end of the barrel with blaze orange duck tape. You can only see the orange if you are looking directly at the muzzle.

Prior to welding up a bad barrel, I would install my 308 barrel and then only have 30-06 dummy rounds in cloth belts in the jeep.

I am in California and have never had an issue with displaying my 1919 with my jeep.

Brett
1942 VEP GPW, J-2 winch, BC-659, 1919a4
1945 GPW, 1943 MBT
Sold - 1967 M151a1, 1943 MB, M416
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Re: BATFE rules for making dummy guns

Post by David_4x4 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:30 am

D_Conrad wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:15 pm
Not trying to hijack a thread, but I have a live fire 1919. I was thinking of getting a shot our barrel and welding the chamber of the barrel to not allow any round to seat for shows which do not allow weapons. Would that qualify as a dummy? Or would the bolt assembly need to be removed as well.
Still a gun.
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Re: BATFE rules for making dummy guns

Post by dpcd67 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:31 am

As stated the receiver is the firearm no matter what else is on it or not on it and no matter if it can fire a round of ammunition or not. A welded barrel on a full auto receiver will still get you ten years and $10k fine.
However, whose rules are you trying to satisfy? Federal, state, your jeep clubs, the parade's?
Each one can be done differently.
Now, ATF does have instructions for making dummy guns from full auto parts kits; basically weld up everything and weld in a bar inside. Shorter than original. Write them and they will send you the instructions.
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Re: BATFE rules for making dummy guns

Post by leadfarmer » Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:07 pm

D_Conrad wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:15 pm
Not trying to hijack a thread, but I have a live fire 1919. I was thinking of getting a shot our barrel and welding the chamber of the barrel to not allow any round to seat for shows which do not allow weapons. Would that qualify as a dummy? Or would the bolt assembly need to be removed as well.
it would still be considered a firearm. If I remove the firing pin from my 1919, it is still a firearm. If my barrel is shot out, headspace is excessive, and basically useless, it is still a firearm, legally. So even though you are meeting the intent of the “no live weapons” request, you would not be truly in compliance. I would remove a 1919 firing pin before going through all the trouble of making a dummy barrel to swap.

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Re: BATFE rules for making dummy guns

Post by dpcd67 » Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:41 am

As I said, it depends on whose rules you are trying to comply, and how strictly they enforce them. Do they mean "no weapons capable of live fire" during the parade, or ever. If you removed the guts, then it would comply, in spirit, at that time. Do they inspect them? Do they even know what to look for?
Now, if you are building a dummy, there are ATF rules for that. Different thing.
A friend has a semi auto 1919, and drives around with it all the time with a. belt of dummy ammo hanging from it. When someone calls the police, he tells them, it's a dummy. They always let him go. They are all veterans and know him. Do not try this in an urban or liberal environment.
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