M25 "Dragon Wagon" timeframes

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Lee Bishop
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M25 "Dragon Wagon" timeframes

Post by Lee Bishop » Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:21 am

I couldn't find anything on the actual timeframe for the M-25 series prime movers for the "Dragon Wagon" tank transporters. The Fred Crimson book nor Wikipedia has a timeframe for actual production. When did they start making these and fielding them?
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Re: M25 "Dragon Wagon" timeframes

Post by retro-roco » Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:30 pm

This is the write up for the one sold from the Littlefield Collection. It says they saw service in Europe beginning in summer of 1944.

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/lc14 ... er/574200
Kirk Gustafson
359th Infantry Regt. 90th Div. WWII HRS

1942 Chevy G506 1-1/2 ton 4x4 Cargo
1943 Ben Hur water trailer

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Re: M25 "Dragon Wagon" timeframes

Post by Lee Bishop » Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:31 pm

Thanks, I couldn't find anything on that.
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Re: M25 "Dragon Wagon" timeframes

Post by retro-roco » Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:36 pm

The nomenclature can be confusing. IIRC, the tractor is an M26 or M26A1 built by Pacific Car & Foundry. The trailer often seen with it was an M15 or M15A1 45 ton transporter trailer. The combination i think was called M25 or M25A1 depending on if the tractor was armored or soft skinned. YMMV!
Kirk Gustafson
359th Infantry Regt. 90th Div. WWII HRS

1942 Chevy G506 1-1/2 ton 4x4 Cargo
1943 Ben Hur water trailer

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Re: M25 "Dragon Wagon" timeframes

Post by retro-roco » Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:52 am

My answer may be only worth what you paid for it. Jus read another post online that says they were used in Italy in 1943... :?
Kirk Gustafson
359th Infantry Regt. 90th Div. WWII HRS

1942 Chevy G506 1-1/2 ton 4x4 Cargo
1943 Ben Hur water trailer

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Re: M25 "Dragon Wagon" timeframes

Post by Lee Bishop » Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:55 am

...and therefore is why I'm confused. I have most of the reference books and NONE of them give dates for production.
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Re: M25 "Dragon Wagon" timeframes

Post by 70th Division » Thu Mar 23, 2023 1:04 pm

Lee Bishop wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:21 am
I couldn't find anything on the actual timeframe for the M-25 series prime movers for the "Dragon Wagon" tank transporters. The Fred Crimson book nor Wikipedia has a timeframe for actual production. When did they start making these and fielding them?
Hello Lee,

Maybe a call to the manufacturer can yield the answers you are looking for on the Pacific .
They are still in business, a very large concern, and doing great !

https://www.paccar.com/

" Pacific Car and Foundry "

They are located in Washington State, and maybe close to your location.

They do have a history link, so maybe someone at Paccar can check their archives and uncover some great information ?

Best Regards,
Ray
Last edited by 70th Division on Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: M25 "Dragon Wagon" timeframes

Post by Lee Bishop » Thu Mar 23, 2023 1:12 pm

There's no chance some random phone person making minimum wage there could answer such a question.
Last edited by Lee Bishop on Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: M25 "Dragon Wagon" timeframes

Post by retro-roco » Thu Mar 23, 2023 1:13 pm

Lee Bishop wrote:
Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:55 am
...and therefore is why I'm confused.
Here is a little more specific production data...

http://usautoindustryworldwartwo.com/pa ... oundry.htm

Of particular note is table 5, which notes numbers produced per year. Looks like this page has been recently freshened up with new photos. :D
Last edited by retro-roco on Thu Mar 23, 2023 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kirk Gustafson
359th Infantry Regt. 90th Div. WWII HRS

1942 Chevy G506 1-1/2 ton 4x4 Cargo
1943 Ben Hur water trailer

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Re: M25 "Dragon Wagon" timeframes

Post by retro-roco » Thu Mar 23, 2023 1:19 pm

Lee Bishop wrote:
Thu Mar 23, 2023 1:12 pm
There's no chance some random phone person msking minimum wagw there could answer such a question.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: So very true :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll: !
Kirk Gustafson
359th Infantry Regt. 90th Div. WWII HRS

1942 Chevy G506 1-1/2 ton 4x4 Cargo
1943 Ben Hur water trailer

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Re: M25 "Dragon Wagon" timeframes

Post by 70th Division » Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:57 pm

Lee Bishop wrote:
Thu Mar 23, 2023 1:12 pm
There's no chance some random phone person msking minimum wagw there could answer such a question.
Hello Lee,

It may be worth a try, as Paccar has been around a long time, and is a great American company.
They no doubt have an official historical department that should have plenty of information, and it seems to be a family run company, straight through since its founding.
I am sure they pay all their workers very well !


It couldn't hurt, to make an inquiry :D .

The great link the Retro-Roco posted, should answer the production questions.


Just to show an interesting example, my good friend in France, Thiery Becker needed some oil seals for his Diamond T restoration, he emailed Timken, asking if they were still made, and they were so impressed with Thierry's reqeust about oil seals,and his restoration efforts, they sent him seals for free, to support his restoration efforts on a WW2 truck.
https://www.hardworkingtrucks.com/home/ ... -diamond-t

He also recently bought an armored M-26, and has almost completed its full restoration.
He found an nos tire that was left at a German farmer's farm in 1945, by US Soldiers that set up a camp there, and now has it on his M-26, he bought it from the farmer !

Best Regards,

Ray

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Re: M25 "Dragon Wagon" timeframes

Post by Lee Bishop » Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:01 pm

It just seems so odd that even here, nobody can answer what should be a simple question. And none of the books and TMs I have don't mention when the Dragon Wagons first were made.
Owner, 1944 Willys MB #366014
Former US Army Captain and REMF :mrgreen:

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Re: M25 "Dragon Wagon" timeframes

Post by 70th Division » Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:03 pm

Lee Bishop wrote:
Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:01 pm
It just seems so odd that even here, nobody can answer what should be a simple question. And none of the books and TMs I have don't mention when the Dragon Wagons first were made.

Hello Lee,

The Pacific tank retrievers and 1500 Sherman tanks they also made were made at their factory in Renton, Washington, and when B-29 wings were being built for Boeing, the Pacific manufacturing was shifted to their factory in Billings, Montana in December, 1943.

From the link :
"Renton, WA Plant: Pacific Car and Foundry is best known for the M4A1 Sherman tanks and M26 tank retriever "Dragon Wagons" built at this facility. The $50,168,000 contract number 883-ORD-2557 resulted in the manufacture of 926 M4A1 Sherman tanks in 1942 and 1943. These M4A1s were built at a unit cost of $54,177 each.

The 753 M26 and 329 M26A1 tank retrievers were built under contract 883-ORD-2749. The value of this contract was $43,061,000 resulting in an average unit cost of $39,798 each. M26 assembly was moved to Billings, MT in December 1943 in order to free up production space at Renton for the construction of B-29 wing spars.

The above two contracts combined were worth $93,229,000 or 95% of the total major contracts for this location. Other contracts were for small naval craft, winches, busses, truck remanufacturing, and logging arches.

There are very few owners of these giant vehicles in the USA, compared to the number still in Europe, and restored today.

They can still be found, but are elusive.

Best Regards,
Ray

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Re: M25 "Dragon Wagon" timeframes

Post by retro-roco » Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:09 pm

Lee Bishop wrote:
Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:01 pm
It just seems so odd that even here, nobody can answer what should be a simple question...
Did you not read the last link I posted? I thought it gave VERY specific information, including when the US Army accepted the first 6 trucks. Not sure what more you are hoping for someone to offer. I guess you may have to hire a National Archives researcher...
Kirk Gustafson
359th Infantry Regt. 90th Div. WWII HRS

1942 Chevy G506 1-1/2 ton 4x4 Cargo
1943 Ben Hur water trailer

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Lee Bishop
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Re: M25 "Dragon Wagon" timeframes

Post by Lee Bishop » Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:11 pm

According to that last link, I finally spotted that the Renton Plant delivered 300 of them in 1943.
Beats me how none of the books on WW2 vehicles mentions when they'd started building them...
Owner, 1944 Willys MB #366014
Former US Army Captain and REMF :mrgreen:


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