2/44 Chevy Engine
-
- G-Colonel
- Posts: 1582
- Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:17 pm
- Location: Massachusetts (The Pay state)
-
- G-Colonel
- Posts: 1582
- Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:17 pm
- Location: Massachusetts (The Pay state)
Re: 2/44 Chevy Engine
Hey Dale,
Thanks for the offer, I may take you up on that, too soon to tell. If things work out with this motor I want to keep it as original/stock as possible. Maybe I can hot rod the engine that is currently in my '45.
Paging Coady Jones... Paging Coady Jones....
I've been reading the TM's, all sorts of 235 posts on the Stove bolt site and You tubes galore.
I got the cam and crank shafts out without breaking anything, here's a few pics of what I found...
I had to make a puller to remove the Balancer pulley. Here are the timing gears... Here are the main bearings... Here's the crank... Continued...
Thanks for the offer, I may take you up on that, too soon to tell. If things work out with this motor I want to keep it as original/stock as possible. Maybe I can hot rod the engine that is currently in my '45.
Paging Coady Jones... Paging Coady Jones....
I've been reading the TM's, all sorts of 235 posts on the Stove bolt site and You tubes galore.
I got the cam and crank shafts out without breaking anything, here's a few pics of what I found...
I had to make a puller to remove the Balancer pulley. Here are the timing gears... Here are the main bearings... Here's the crank... Continued...
Kelley
-
- G-Colonel
- Posts: 1582
- Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:17 pm
- Location: Massachusetts (The Pay state)
Re: 2/44 Chevy Engine
Here's a couple of the Cam bearings...
I also managed to separate the pistons from the bent rods, they don't slid in with "thumb pressure" but they're not too far off.
Comments welcome.Kelley
-
- G-Major
- Posts: 870
- Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:45 pm
- Location: Southern California
Re: 2/44 Chevy Engine
Good images for inspection.
Keep that puller on the truck in case you need to change a front main seal in the field, Good puller!
Don't throw out the damper either, those dampers with the 2 helical drives for the hand crank are hard to find too, the places I called to rebuild them all said to send in my core for rebuild
Take a good look at the front pulley key way groove, I've been told the damper key way/crank key way can get hammered out and make them no longer serviceable. I was flabbergasted when I pulled off the 2 dampers on my engines and there was no damper retention bolt! Just using a "press fit" to hold that damper on was surprising to me! When you think how many RPM's that thing spins and no bolt? Kinda spooky...but these engines aren't supposed to rev up super high.
Unfortunately the main bearings don't look serviceable. They look like they have contamination damage from dirty oil, which is expected for a 70+ year old veteran that was rode hard and put away wet. The cam bearings look eroded too, which will more than likely mean you oil pump is super tired and show wear on the internal gears and housing. A lot of sludge was in the oil pan baffles the 2 engine oil pans I took apart, there is a lot of spots for built up junk to hide in behind the baffles and the oil nozzles/ oil dipper catch tray.
The mains bearings look like they have been updated by the pictures like mine were, try to wiggle/jiggle them to lift them out of the block. These old War engines are the only ones I've taken apart that have been updated and used a "Pin/Dowel" on the back side of the bearing that goes into the block to keep the bearing from spinning in the main block bores. They may be poured in babbit bearings, but they look to me like later insert bearings by the pictures to me. The bearings in the caps will usually show more wear due to gravity pulling down on the crank all the time. The rear intermediate bearing is probably the one with the most "rough surface". I haven't found a lube circuit diagram to study, but if dirty oil gets in to the circuit the bearing that gets the oil first will show the most wear, Inverse to that comment, if you have a oil starvation issue the last bearing in the circuit will show the most wear if you catch the engine before it seizes or fails.
Old serviceable bearings would look like the front journal (with the timing gear), that would take a polish and pull a few shims and be good to run.
A funny old trick I read about a long time ago was to get a penny and lightly run it across the journal and "feel' if you can feel bumpiness on the journal surface to feel how flat it is. If you can feel bumps it needs work, those bumps could be up to .015 of an inch wear. They probably used a old penny because the old pennies were soft material and not scratch the crank.
Good thing is there have been a lot of those engines produced, bad thing is crank and rod bearings are getting harder to find, At least that is what Karl at the machine shop told me about my old war engine. He said they had to call all over to country to find the bearings for mine, each main bearing is a different diameter. Each bearing/journal gets larger the closer you get to the flywheel, which means they all are different, which means they aren't a matched set. You have to do your crank machining work, then scrounge up your parts.
When I was calling around for parts I called a place by me that does a lot of old engine work called EGGE in Santa Fe Springs, Ca. They make their own pistons, have a babitting/machining department and a lot of old NOS parts for all kinds of oddball engines. If they don't have it, then they usually know of somebody that does have what you need. The bad thing I found when researching parts is the under sizes you need are the ones that are out of stock.
For example: If you need .040 (1.016mm) under size bearings you can find a lot of .010-.020 (.254-.508mm) under size, but the larger cuts required to remove damage on the crank will need the bigger under size bearings to put in the block which are the harder ones to find after 70 years of operation...
Keep that puller on the truck in case you need to change a front main seal in the field, Good puller!
Don't throw out the damper either, those dampers with the 2 helical drives for the hand crank are hard to find too, the places I called to rebuild them all said to send in my core for rebuild
Take a good look at the front pulley key way groove, I've been told the damper key way/crank key way can get hammered out and make them no longer serviceable. I was flabbergasted when I pulled off the 2 dampers on my engines and there was no damper retention bolt! Just using a "press fit" to hold that damper on was surprising to me! When you think how many RPM's that thing spins and no bolt? Kinda spooky...but these engines aren't supposed to rev up super high.
Unfortunately the main bearings don't look serviceable. They look like they have contamination damage from dirty oil, which is expected for a 70+ year old veteran that was rode hard and put away wet. The cam bearings look eroded too, which will more than likely mean you oil pump is super tired and show wear on the internal gears and housing. A lot of sludge was in the oil pan baffles the 2 engine oil pans I took apart, there is a lot of spots for built up junk to hide in behind the baffles and the oil nozzles/ oil dipper catch tray.
The mains bearings look like they have been updated by the pictures like mine were, try to wiggle/jiggle them to lift them out of the block. These old War engines are the only ones I've taken apart that have been updated and used a "Pin/Dowel" on the back side of the bearing that goes into the block to keep the bearing from spinning in the main block bores. They may be poured in babbit bearings, but they look to me like later insert bearings by the pictures to me. The bearings in the caps will usually show more wear due to gravity pulling down on the crank all the time. The rear intermediate bearing is probably the one with the most "rough surface". I haven't found a lube circuit diagram to study, but if dirty oil gets in to the circuit the bearing that gets the oil first will show the most wear, Inverse to that comment, if you have a oil starvation issue the last bearing in the circuit will show the most wear if you catch the engine before it seizes or fails.
Old serviceable bearings would look like the front journal (with the timing gear), that would take a polish and pull a few shims and be good to run.
A funny old trick I read about a long time ago was to get a penny and lightly run it across the journal and "feel' if you can feel bumpiness on the journal surface to feel how flat it is. If you can feel bumps it needs work, those bumps could be up to .015 of an inch wear. They probably used a old penny because the old pennies were soft material and not scratch the crank.
Good thing is there have been a lot of those engines produced, bad thing is crank and rod bearings are getting harder to find, At least that is what Karl at the machine shop told me about my old war engine. He said they had to call all over to country to find the bearings for mine, each main bearing is a different diameter. Each bearing/journal gets larger the closer you get to the flywheel, which means they all are different, which means they aren't a matched set. You have to do your crank machining work, then scrounge up your parts.
When I was calling around for parts I called a place by me that does a lot of old engine work called EGGE in Santa Fe Springs, Ca. They make their own pistons, have a babitting/machining department and a lot of old NOS parts for all kinds of oddball engines. If they don't have it, then they usually know of somebody that does have what you need. The bad thing I found when researching parts is the under sizes you need are the ones that are out of stock.
For example: If you need .040 (1.016mm) under size bearings you can find a lot of .010-.020 (.254-.508mm) under size, but the larger cuts required to remove damage on the crank will need the bigger under size bearings to put in the block which are the harder ones to find after 70 years of operation...
1942 G7117 No. 389946
1945 G527 Serial no.9218
USN CM3 NMCB "4"
Cat Field SVC/GPS installer
Cat Main shop Mech
1945 G527 Serial no.9218
USN CM3 NMCB "4"
Cat Field SVC/GPS installer
Cat Main shop Mech
-
- G-Colonel
- Posts: 1582
- Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:17 pm
- Location: Massachusetts (The Pay state)
Re: 2/44 Chevy Engine
Thanks for the reply,
The home made puller just demonstrates my lack of tools suited for this type of work. I did spend some time on E bay buying up some I.D. and O.D. Micrometers, so I should be able to get some accurate measurements soon.
The Damper seems to be in very good shape, The motor has very low miles on it, I was told less than 5K. The hooked barbs have been milled off to allow for the install of the front mount pump, so there won't be and crank starting of this motor. I've been reading over on StoveBolt and found a drill jig/bushing to drill and tap the end of the crank for a 7/16-14 bolt to capture the damper pulley, this would also eliminate any hank crank possibilities. I may make my own drill jig/oil seal/gear cover alignment tool to accomplish this.
https://mrhotrod6.com/products/235-inli ... 1142530609
It looks to me that the main and Cam bearings are more rotted than worn, they have this water damaged look to them. Is this something that happens to Babbit bearings that have been exposed to water?
Is it good idea for me to try this with my crank and cam Shaft, or should I be looking for a machine shop?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7DZxqPUQto
The Main bearing can easily be swapped out and are available on E bay (the stock sized ones), the cam bearings look like they are easily changed too (with the right tools) the TM says they should be reamed after, is that true?
Feeling a little over my head.
The home made puller just demonstrates my lack of tools suited for this type of work. I did spend some time on E bay buying up some I.D. and O.D. Micrometers, so I should be able to get some accurate measurements soon.
The Damper seems to be in very good shape, The motor has very low miles on it, I was told less than 5K. The hooked barbs have been milled off to allow for the install of the front mount pump, so there won't be and crank starting of this motor. I've been reading over on StoveBolt and found a drill jig/bushing to drill and tap the end of the crank for a 7/16-14 bolt to capture the damper pulley, this would also eliminate any hank crank possibilities. I may make my own drill jig/oil seal/gear cover alignment tool to accomplish this.
https://mrhotrod6.com/products/235-inli ... 1142530609
It looks to me that the main and Cam bearings are more rotted than worn, they have this water damaged look to them. Is this something that happens to Babbit bearings that have been exposed to water?
Is it good idea for me to try this with my crank and cam Shaft, or should I be looking for a machine shop?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7DZxqPUQto
The Main bearing can easily be swapped out and are available on E bay (the stock sized ones), the cam bearings look like they are easily changed too (with the right tools) the TM says they should be reamed after, is that true?
Feeling a little over my head.
Kelley
-
- G-Major
- Posts: 870
- Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:45 pm
- Location: Southern California
Re: 2/44 Chevy Engine
The old oil can deteriorate and eventually become acidic with other water and oxidation, then it eats at the bearing material. An old way to tell if oil was bad it to check its "TBN" Total Base Number- how much acid it can absorb. I have heard of this on the Diesel engine side of things, but not so much on the automotive side of the industry.
You can polish it up with emery cloth that way to get a bit more of life, but if you want it to have a full service life you'll need it to be machined correctly to keep the journals concentric or round. When you get your micrometers you can tinker with your starting measurements. The worst journal kinda looks like it is built up metal, it kinda looks like fretting or metal transfer. You can get away with those repairs with careful labor, but you have to make the choice on how long you want it to run and what is the budget you have to invest into the project. Try the polishing a bit, it is a perfect candidate for learning how to polish, just go slow and easy to monitor your material removal.
The 2 ears being milled off is kinda sad, but still good for operation of the engine. I thought it kinda looked like the cross bar stock was sitting close to the damper. That threading jig is pretty cool, but if you ain't gonna rev it to the moon the old press fit and lock-tite should be fine. So far mine hasn't flown off and I've had it rev'ved to the governor at 3100 rpm a few times already.
The "reaming" part is for the old babbit bearings, once you have it inspected, research what machine shops you have around you that will do it, I didn't find too many shops that even wanted to rebuild an old "War horse dinosaur" like that. They loose money on labor of non-modern engines. It cost me $1500.00 to have my block sleeved back to standard and stacked together with the fresh lower end parts and cutting the crank .020 under on the mains and rods. So shop around a bit, there are a lot of machine shops out there. If I were you I would spend the Green backs and have the peace of mind of having the machine shop stack it together.
I doesn't take much to wipe out all the goodies inside the engine, then your back to square one...it happened to me. All it took was one dirty oil filler tube to take out the whole lower end. I kept working a bit then getting side tracked, Stopping and starting the wrenching and loosing attention to detail did me in.
You can polish it up with emery cloth that way to get a bit more of life, but if you want it to have a full service life you'll need it to be machined correctly to keep the journals concentric or round. When you get your micrometers you can tinker with your starting measurements. The worst journal kinda looks like it is built up metal, it kinda looks like fretting or metal transfer. You can get away with those repairs with careful labor, but you have to make the choice on how long you want it to run and what is the budget you have to invest into the project. Try the polishing a bit, it is a perfect candidate for learning how to polish, just go slow and easy to monitor your material removal.
The 2 ears being milled off is kinda sad, but still good for operation of the engine. I thought it kinda looked like the cross bar stock was sitting close to the damper. That threading jig is pretty cool, but if you ain't gonna rev it to the moon the old press fit and lock-tite should be fine. So far mine hasn't flown off and I've had it rev'ved to the governor at 3100 rpm a few times already.
The "reaming" part is for the old babbit bearings, once you have it inspected, research what machine shops you have around you that will do it, I didn't find too many shops that even wanted to rebuild an old "War horse dinosaur" like that. They loose money on labor of non-modern engines. It cost me $1500.00 to have my block sleeved back to standard and stacked together with the fresh lower end parts and cutting the crank .020 under on the mains and rods. So shop around a bit, there are a lot of machine shops out there. If I were you I would spend the Green backs and have the peace of mind of having the machine shop stack it together.
I doesn't take much to wipe out all the goodies inside the engine, then your back to square one...it happened to me. All it took was one dirty oil filler tube to take out the whole lower end. I kept working a bit then getting side tracked, Stopping and starting the wrenching and loosing attention to detail did me in.
1942 G7117 No. 389946
1945 G527 Serial no.9218
USN CM3 NMCB "4"
Cat Field SVC/GPS installer
Cat Main shop Mech
1945 G527 Serial no.9218
USN CM3 NMCB "4"
Cat Field SVC/GPS installer
Cat Main shop Mech
-
- G-Colonel
- Posts: 1582
- Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:17 pm
- Location: Massachusetts (The Pay state)
Re: 2/44 Chevy Engine
Good advice! At the rate I'd be putting this thing together in my dirty gritty shop, it would likely never get finished.
I asked a couple of trusted guys who the best shop for engine overhaul, they both suggested this place...
https://www.jandm-machine.com/index.html
I Brought it over there this afternoon, it has plenty of issues...
Cam is junk, crank needs to be ground, bearings are all junk, cylinders need to be bored, etc,etc,etc.
Let the spending begin...
I asked a couple of trusted guys who the best shop for engine overhaul, they both suggested this place...
https://www.jandm-machine.com/index.html
I Brought it over there this afternoon, it has plenty of issues...
Cam is junk, crank needs to be ground, bearings are all junk, cylinders need to be bored, etc,etc,etc.
Let the spending begin...
Kelley
-
- G-Major
- Posts: 870
- Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:45 pm
- Location: Southern California
Re: 2/44 Chevy Engine
That place looks good to me! How many places can say they rebuild Dusenburgs?!?
look like they have good tooling and a wide range of rebuild history with multi-manufacturers
look like they have good tooling and a wide range of rebuild history with multi-manufacturers
1942 G7117 No. 389946
1945 G527 Serial no.9218
USN CM3 NMCB "4"
Cat Field SVC/GPS installer
Cat Main shop Mech
1945 G527 Serial no.9218
USN CM3 NMCB "4"
Cat Field SVC/GPS installer
Cat Main shop Mech
-
- G-Colonel
- Posts: 1582
- Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:17 pm
- Location: Massachusetts (The Pay state)
Re: 2/44 Chevy Engine
Hi Guys,
Anybody know where i can find a valve cover like this? Mine has some rust problems. Thanks!
Anybody know where i can find a valve cover like this? Mine has some rust problems. Thanks!
Kelley
-
- G-Colonel
- Posts: 1582
- Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:17 pm
- Location: Massachusetts (The Pay state)
Re: 2/44 Chevy Engine
Update 9/21/18...
My motor has gone thru the oven and cleaning process, here's some pics... The head has cracks next to all 6 exhaust valves these are going to be repaired, the block and crank are crack free. The deep sump extension on the oil pan has to come off to really clean things up in there. Thats it for now.
My motor has gone thru the oven and cleaning process, here's some pics... The head has cracks next to all 6 exhaust valves these are going to be repaired, the block and crank are crack free. The deep sump extension on the oil pan has to come off to really clean things up in there. Thats it for now.
Kelley
-
- G-Colonel
- Posts: 1916
- Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:09 am
- Location: Western North Carolina
Re: 2/44 Chevy Engine
Jon,
Your engine project is looking real good and your pictures are great. Who doesn't like to see shiny "new" engine parts? Have the parts passed the magnaflux test yet? I am interested to know exactly how that spring on the valve functions...never seen such a thing.
Thanks for sharing the project.
Paul
Your engine project is looking real good and your pictures are great. Who doesn't like to see shiny "new" engine parts? Have the parts passed the magnaflux test yet? I am interested to know exactly how that spring on the valve functions...never seen such a thing.
Thanks for sharing the project.
Paul
1941 G4112 Chevrolet with Hercules dump bed
-
- Jeep Heaven
- Posts: 49841
- Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:37 pm
- Location: Proving Ground
Re: 2/44 Chevy Engine
I may still have NOS WWII 235 Crankshafts. Am slowly working my way toward them.
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
7 MIL SPEC MAINTAINED MV'S
COL. BRUNO BROOKS (ARMY MOTORS) IS MY HERO
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
7 MIL SPEC MAINTAINED MV'S
COL. BRUNO BROOKS (ARMY MOTORS) IS MY HERO
-
- G-Colonel
- Posts: 1582
- Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:17 pm
- Location: Massachusetts (The Pay state)
Re: 2/44 Chevy Engine
Hey Paul,
The attached pic shows the electro magnet that they use to inspect for cracks. I watched him do this, he spans areas that are prone to cracking and sprays Iron powder which tends to gather at the crack. My Head has repairable cracks next to all 6 exhaust valves. the block and crank are crack free. Here's how they deal with cracks...
https://www.jandm-machine.com/metalStitching.html
I was told those springs on the valve stems came from the factory, John assumed they were a military add on to reduce oil consumption. Maybe Cody or Joel knows something about them.
Thanks for the offer Joel, it looks like my crank just needs a little work, I'll keep it in mind if mine.
The attached pic shows the electro magnet that they use to inspect for cracks. I watched him do this, he spans areas that are prone to cracking and sprays Iron powder which tends to gather at the crack. My Head has repairable cracks next to all 6 exhaust valves. the block and crank are crack free. Here's how they deal with cracks...
https://www.jandm-machine.com/metalStitching.html
I was told those springs on the valve stems came from the factory, John assumed they were a military add on to reduce oil consumption. Maybe Cody or Joel knows something about them.
Thanks for the offer Joel, it looks like my crank just needs a little work, I'll keep it in mind if mine.
Kelley
-
- Jeep Heaven
- Posts: 49841
- Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:37 pm
- Location: Proving Ground
Re: 2/44 Chevy Engine
I am not familiar with those springs in the pic. Will find out tho.
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
7 MIL SPEC MAINTAINED MV'S
COL. BRUNO BROOKS (ARMY MOTORS) IS MY HERO
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
7 MIL SPEC MAINTAINED MV'S
COL. BRUNO BROOKS (ARMY MOTORS) IS MY HERO
-
- G-Command Sergeant Major
- Posts: 249
- Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:27 pm
- Location:
Re: 2/44 Chevy Engine
I notice that you have what looks like a fiber timing gear. I had a daily driver 235 for many years. Only had 1 major break down. Right after fueling at a gas station. lost timing Had to Tow home. The point where the two timing gears meet the steel gear striped the teeth off of the fiber gear. No warning when this happened. When i went to get a replacement i replaced with a aluminum gear. I was told that is what is used in trucks. That the fiber gears were used in cars to cut down on noise ? All said and done i could not here any difference between aluminum or fiber. After Having that breakdown i would not feel comfortable with a fiber gear. Any imput on this?
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 44 guests