tech topic Dukw wheel bearings, seals, grease, speedy sleeves, axle upgrade

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W. Winget
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Re: What grease do you use on dukw wheel bearings

Post by W. Winget » Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:36 am

When you place a piece of steel in a bath of vinegar or rust treatment, it deposits a black phosphate protective coating atop the metal. It's generally harmless, but on a bearing surface I would think you would not want any deposit of any kind.
This is what I would speculate is occurring.

Have to wonder if anyone contacted a bearing and seal company directly and explained what we were doing with the axles, (submerged and spinning) presenting the old seal design photos to them and seeing if they would recommend a double lip neoprene or synthetic seal replacement design after 75+ years of further research in their belts. Might be some Underwater US Navy Seal Team ATV :lol: they make a new seal for that could be produced or procured to reduce leakage.

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Re: What grease do you use on dukw wheel bearings

Post by fahtal » Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:39 am

W. Winget wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:36 am
When you place a piece of steel in a bath of vinegar or rust treatment, it deposits a black phosphate protective coating atop the metal. It's generally harmless, but on a bearing surface I would think you would not want any deposit of any kind.
This is what I would speculate is occurring.
I agree. we would rather have a clean metallic looking surface. But if this is the worst thing then we are ok with it..
Have to wonder if anyone contacted a bearing and seal company directly and explained what we were doing with the axles, (submerged and spinning) presenting the old seal design photos to them and seeing if they would recommend a double lip neoprene or synthetic seal replacement design after 75+ years of further research in their belts. Might be some Underwater US Navy Seal Team ATV :lol: they make a new seal for that could be produced or procured to reduce leakage.
Not sure how to read this. But this is kind of what we have done. First with the axl overhaul 12 years ago(speedy sleeves and seals and bearings) we discussed with our bearing and seal supplier, he recommended the marine grease. we used this grease for 10 years. It was better then the standard grease, because with a bit of luck we could use the bearings for a second year. Just as jeffl describes
" Bearings had light corrosion so we cleaned and repacked"
. The marine grease mixed with the water and became "soapy". The water could enter the shafts and when we tapped of the oil there was always water.

2 years ago we changed the marine grease for the Eurol cs-2/502-s with the results we have now. no wear no water and 2 year old grease that could go a third year(lab tested)

@jeffl

For the rear axles we use these seals:

Image

can`t find them on the internet... looks like this is the company but they don`t list the 49904 number https://www.victorreinz.com/EN/Products/Oil-seals.aspx

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Re: tech topic Dukw wheel bearings, seals, grease, speedy sleeves, axle upgrade

Post by W. Winget » Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:02 am

A 1/2 ton '46 Chevy guy asked a question on the same seal (google), the responses came back (from guys with cross reference manuals from Victor)
Victor p/n 49904 = National 6358.
Appears to be a Federal‑Mogul or Timken seal.
V/R W Winget

Oddly enough even our American chain hardware super store Home Depot carry the part :shock: $17.18 USD
Internet #309313947 Model # 6358

Image

Low swell in hydrocarbon fluids
Design type: spring loaded; multi-lip
Provides good low temperature capability
Temperature range: -40°F to 225°F; -40°C to 107°C

2003-2007 Chevrolet C4500 Kodiak, 1997-1999 Chevrolet C3500, 1991-1995 Chevrolet C3500HD, 1988-1993 Chevrolet C3500,K3500, 1976 Chevrolet P30, 1971-1972 Chevrolet G30 Van 4.1L 4.8L, 1968-1970 Chevrolet P30 Van 2.6L, 1968-1969 Chevrolet K30 Pickup

2008 GMC C4500 Topkick, 1997-1999 GMC C3500, 1991-1995 GMC C3500HD, 1988-1993 GMC C3500,K3500, 1979-1989 GMC P3500 4.8L, 1975-1978 GMC P35 4.8L 5.7L 7.4L, 1971-1972 GMC P35/P3500 Van, 1970-1972 GMC G35/G3500 Van V8

https://www.homedepot.com/p/National-Wh ... /309313947
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Re: tech topic Dukw wheel bearings, seals, grease, speedy sleeves, axle upgrade

Post by jeffl » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:16 am

W. Winget wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:02 am
A 1/2 ton '46 Chevy guy asked a question on the same seal (google), the responses came back (from guys with cross reference manuals from Victor)
Victor p/n 49904 = National 6358.
Appears to be a Federal‑Mogul or Timken seal.
V/R W Winget

Oddly enough even our American chain hardware super store Home Depot carry the part :shock: $17.18 USD
Internet #309313947 Model # 6358


Low swell in hydrocarbon fluids
Design type: spring loaded; multi-lip
Provides good low temperature capability
Temperature range: -40°F to 225°F; -40°C to 107°C

2003-2007 Chevrolet C4500 Kodiak, 1997-1999 Chevrolet C3500, 1991-1995 Chevrolet C3500HD, 1988-1993 Chevrolet C3500,K3500, 1976 Chevrolet P30, 1971-1972 Chevrolet G30 Van 4.1L 4.8L, 1968-1970 Chevrolet P30 Van 2.6L, 1968-1969 Chevrolet K30 Pickup

2008 GMC C4500 Topkick, 1997-1999 GMC C3500, 1991-1995 GMC C3500HD, 1988-1993 GMC C3500,K3500, 1979-1989 GMC P3500 4.8L, 1975-1978 GMC P35 4.8L 5.7L 7.4L, 1971-1972 GMC P35/P3500 Van, 1970-1972 GMC G35/G3500 Van V8

https://www.homedepot.com/p/National-Wh ... /309313947


I was away a few days and wondering how this was turning out.

So it is still the 6358 seal for the rear axle inner with a speedy sleeve. The math I did does not seem to show enough interference with the speedy sleeve and this seal. Again my math could be in error.

Image
Last edited by jeffl on Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: tech topic Dukw wheel bearings, seals, grease, speedy sleeves, axle upgrade

Post by jeffl » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:22 am

Front Hub inner seal, rear axle outer seal.

The National 415937 was the number on the seals when I pulled off the front hub. I ordered some from Autozone for $17.29 each. I also bought the rear outer seals 6090S for $22.29 from them. I've already been using the rear outer without issue seems to fit well.

I will try to use my PI tape of the front lip seals, it is narrow though and the tape might not work as well.

Image




Image
Last edited by jeffl on Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:55 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: tech topic Dukw wheel bearings, seals, grease, speedy sleeves, axle upgrade

Post by jeffl » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:34 am

Pinion Seal replacement

I went to Bearings and drives to match up the rear pinion seals. There were two in the rear, the front one was a type of felt seal and the second the oil seal.

This was the one that they matched up. I don't think two of these would fit in the bore because it is 1/2 inch thick. I had a NOS GM-3675072 so I used it without the packing GM-3671518 because that's what the other axles showed.

Maybe someone has a better plan than this.

Image

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Re: tech topic Dukw wheel bearings, seals, grease, speedy sleeves, axle upgrade

Post by fahtal » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:52 am

Yes it looks like it is the same type of seal... different brands, same specs...

I will have to meassure the front axle and the seals for you. But to be fair i don`t think 0,5 mm will be a big problem for these seals. The inner diameter will be smaller then the shaft they are made for and will be stretched onto the shaft. That the shaft is 0,5mm smaller then optimal is probably not a big deal. We have good results with it.

If you have a closer look at the speedy sleeve you can even see the wear of the seal on there after 12 years of service.

So my advise still stands. Make sure your axles are smoothe and round where the seal is, or apply a speedy sleeve. Use a modern seal. And the best grease you can find. In my opinion that would be a grease that doesn`t mix with water...


I will look into the pinion seal question.

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Re: tech topic Dukw wheel bearings, seals, grease, speedy sleeves, axle upgrade

Post by fahtal » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:28 am

Image

This is the seal we use on the front wheel

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Re: tech topic Dukw wheel bearings, seals, grease, speedy sleeves, axle upgrade

Post by hummermark » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:18 am

Does any one know if there is a uk outlet for the euros-cs2 grease?
Going by your positive experience with the grease I would like to try in my Gpa.
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Re: tech topic Dukw wheel bearings, seals, grease, speedy sleeves, axle upgrade

Post by jeffl » Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:28 am

fahtal wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:52 am
Yes it looks like it is the same type of seal... different brands, same specs...

I will have to meassure the front axle and the seals for you. But to be fair i don`t think 0,5 mm will be a big problem for these seals. The inner diameter will be smaller then the shaft they are made for and will be stretched onto the shaft. That the shaft is 0,5mm smaller then optimal is probably not a big deal. We have good results with it.

If you have a closer look at the speedy sleeve you can even see the wear of the seal on there after 12 years of service.

So my advise still stands. Make sure your axles are smoothe and round where the seal is, or apply a speedy sleeve. Use a modern seal. And the best grease you can find. In my opinion that would be a grease that doesn`t mix with water...


I will look into the pinion seal question.
Thanks, I will try this first on my left rear where the drum slid on too easy with the NOS seal. I have never measured seals so your input sounds right that there is a built in interference fit that can allow for the seal to work on a diameter smaller than listed on spec of 3.187.

I need to ponder how to make my own McGyver grinder/lathe........

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Re: tech topic Dukw wheel bearings, seals, grease, speedy sleeves, axle upgrade

Post by fahtal » Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:10 pm

hummermark wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:18 am
Does any one know if there is a uk outlet for the euros-cs2 grease?
Going by your positive experience with the grease I would like to try in my Gpa.
I asked them. The answer is no. But they can send you direct.

I will send you the contact info with a pm.

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Re: tech topic Dukw wheel bearings, seals, grease, speedy sleeves, axle upgrade

Post by fahtal » Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:16 pm

jeffl wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:28 am
I need to ponder how to make my own McGyver grinder/lathe........
I will search the"archive" for remains of our mc gyver grinder...

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Re: tech topic Dukw wheel bearings, seals, grease, speedy sleeves, axle upgrade

Post by fahtal » Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:41 am

the theory from eurol about the black colour is that the PH value of the grease is 14 and together with the water/ cast-iron hub/ and maybe electrical circuit, You can get the black colour. Thy don`t see any problems with the black residue. We also did`t see any problems.

Small update. We now also use the grease in the brake cilinders, we hope to get them more water proof like this. (in the past we modified the inside to stainless steal)


Image

Image

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Re: tech topic Dukw wheel bearings, seals, grease, speedy sleeves, axle upgrade

Post by weasel nut » Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:08 pm

Is there a source for Eurol in the United States.

I have been to their website. What specific version of the 502 are you using? CS-2/502-S ?

https://www.eurolspecialty.com/en/eurol ... cs-2-502-s

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Re: tech topic Dukw wheel bearings, seals, grease, speedy sleeves, axle upgrade

Post by fahtal » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:27 pm

I will ask them.

502s we use.

Toyota is also using it on their Dakar cars.


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