Not starting with key start
- YLG80
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Re: Not starting with key start
[quote="Bob Bell" post_id=1919664 time=1655057810 user_id=
And Yves, the wine was Pinot Noir from Napa.
[/quote]
Hmmm, next time try a mixed Petit Verdot/Malbec grape also from Napa.
Malbec is a fantastic grape.
I have exacty the same wiring with a 6V solenoid and 6V starter. never had any problem.
And yes the push button on top of the solenoid is very convenient.
I have installed the solenoid behind the air filter on the firewall.
Yves
And Yves, the wine was Pinot Noir from Napa.
[/quote]
Hmmm, next time try a mixed Petit Verdot/Malbec grape also from Napa.
Malbec is a fantastic grape.
I have exacty the same wiring with a 6V solenoid and 6V starter. never had any problem.
And yes the push button on top of the solenoid is very convenient.
I have installed the solenoid behind the air filter on the firewall.
Yves
Ford GPW 1943 - Louisville - DoD 12-7-43
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Re: Not starting with key start
You are right, the Malbec is very good. We quite often drink it. My wife is going to napa tomorrow - I'll ask her to look out for a mixed Petit Verdot/Malbec. As it happens I have a nice French jerry can marked 'vin' ... maybe I should get it filled with the correct vintage. I imagine the can was French army issue.
I have mounted my solenoid a little to the right of the air filter. Not a particularly great position as the e-brake cable is very close, but I put it there because there were already two holes drilled in the tub that were a perfect match for the solenoid. Possibly there was one there before. I have built the 3A from a collection of parts, so don't know the history. I found the tub in a warehouse yard, and bought it for a hundred dollars many years ago.
You are right - the button is very useful ...
I have mounted my solenoid a little to the right of the air filter. Not a particularly great position as the e-brake cable is very close, but I put it there because there were already two holes drilled in the tub that were a perfect match for the solenoid. Possibly there was one there before. I have built the 3A from a collection of parts, so don't know the history. I found the tub in a warehouse yard, and bought it for a hundred dollars many years ago.
You are right - the button is very useful ...
Bob Bell
1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.
1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.
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Re: Not starting with key start
As Yves suggested, there are two different 6-volt solenoids with a button on the top. One uses 6-volt current applied to the activation (small) post to activate it. This is the type that you should have with your key-switch activated system. The other style requires the small post to be grounded to activate it. This is the style used by Ford in their push-button started vehicles. Im not sure what would happen if voltage was applied to the small post on one of the latter styles.
BW.
Edit: After some thought, even though I’m only guessing at how the Ford-style solenoid is wound, i think that nothing would happen.
BW
BW.
Edit: After some thought, even though I’m only guessing at how the Ford-style solenoid is wound, i think that nothing would happen.
BW
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Re: Not starting with key start
This is interesting. I am sure this is the right one for two reasons. Firstly, applying current to the small post does activate the starter - just not enough. If this post was supposed to be grounded, surely the starter would be totally inactive when current is applied. Secondly, there is continuity between the small post and the starter at all times - applying the current temporarily links the battery side to the starter side. This says to me that it should NOT be grounded.by Bruce W » Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:13 pm
As Yves suggested, there are two different 6-volt solenoids with a button on the top. One uses 6-volt current applied to the activation (small) post to activate it. This is the type that you should have with your key-switch activated system. The other style requires the small post to be grounded to activate it. This is the style used by Ford in their push-button started vehicles. Im not sure what would happen if voltage was applied to the small post on one of the latter styles.
But thanks for the info Bruce ... as always, the more the better.
Bob Bell
1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.
1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.
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Re: Not starting with key start
Yes the ground activated solenoid could be activated with the a positive signal on the small post if there is a voltage drop in the circuit.Bruce W wrote: ↑Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:13 pmAs Yves suggested, there are two different 6-volt solenoids with a button on the top. One uses 6-volt current applied to the activation (small) post to activate it. This is the type that you should have with your key-switch activated system. The other style requires the small post to be grounded to activate it. This is the style used by Ford in their push-button started vehicles. Im not sure what would happen if voltage was applied to the small post on one of the latter styles.
BW.
Edit: After some thought, even though I’m only guessing at how the Ford-style solenoid is wound, i think that nothing would happen.
BW
It seems to be the case withe 3.6V measured.
Sometimes it is confusing.
https://smithcoelectric.com/blogs/tech/ ... -solenoids
Yves
Ford GPW 1943 - Louisville - DoD 12-7-43
serial 164794
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Re: Not starting with key start
Types of solenoids. This is getting confusing, and I know how they work.
The type of solenoid that should have the activating terminal grounded to engage. The power through the activating coil comes from the large "Batt" side terminal on the solenoid. The small activating terminal test hot any time the solenoid is installed and connected. Grounding this terminal activates the solenoid. Putting B+ to the small terminal is putting B+ on both ends of the activating coil and noting happens. Foot note. Sometimes the cables on the large terminals are reversed. No Joy. The solenoid won't engage.
The type solenoid that engages with B+ on the activating terminal. The activating coil is internally grounded. Power comes externally to the solenoid. Grounding the small terminal is connecting both ends of the activating coil and again, nothing happens.
I could go into solenoids with two small terminals but don't think that applies here and will pull up short.
The solenoid activates and holds in with the starter cable off but chatters with the starter connected. Voltage drop on the circuit from the starter load. This would be somewhere from the battery to the solenoid and would show up at the battery side of the solenoid. Just have to test back from the solenoid to the battery to find where this happens.
Could be the battery. I have seen batteries that have good voltage with no load but fall flat under load.
The type of solenoid that should have the activating terminal grounded to engage. The power through the activating coil comes from the large "Batt" side terminal on the solenoid. The small activating terminal test hot any time the solenoid is installed and connected. Grounding this terminal activates the solenoid. Putting B+ to the small terminal is putting B+ on both ends of the activating coil and noting happens. Foot note. Sometimes the cables on the large terminals are reversed. No Joy. The solenoid won't engage.
The type solenoid that engages with B+ on the activating terminal. The activating coil is internally grounded. Power comes externally to the solenoid. Grounding the small terminal is connecting both ends of the activating coil and again, nothing happens.
I could go into solenoids with two small terminals but don't think that applies here and will pull up short.
The solenoid activates and holds in with the starter cable off but chatters with the starter connected. Voltage drop on the circuit from the starter load. This would be somewhere from the battery to the solenoid and would show up at the battery side of the solenoid. Just have to test back from the solenoid to the battery to find where this happens.
Could be the battery. I have seen batteries that have good voltage with no load but fall flat under load.
Mike Wolford
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Re: Not starting with key start
Thanks, Mike - confusing it is! And thanks Yves for the link to Smithco.by Wolfman » Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:01 am
Types of solenoids. This is getting confusing
The solenoid I have is an S.61056 / NCA 11450A. I can find plenty for sale on the internet, but no info as to whether they are ground activated. However, as they seem to be used on older Ford and Allis Chalmers tractors, I am beginning to think they are or might be ground-activated.
Can I test this by simply removing the wire from the key start post, and jumping a wire from the negative post of the battery?
And then, after writing the above, I looked at the following quote, scratched my head, and considered my labors over the last few days.
But something does happen, but not enough! The starter tries to engage, but does not succeed. I did earlier find a voltage drop at this small terminal, but as I measure again, I get 6 volts at the small terminal when the key is engaged, and also 6 volts at the cable going to the starter as the key is engaged. Thus 6 V going into the solenoid and 6 coming out of it when the key is engaged.Putting B+ to the small terminal is putting B+ on both ends of the activating coil and nothing happens
So three possibilities. One, the solenoid IS ground activated but does appear to work with positive activation (viz the 6 volts shown in the previous paragraph). Two - the solenoid is positively activated, or three, the starter does have a weak Bendix despite the starter shop guy saying it was OK.
I'm a bit confused here. The positve cable runs directly from the battery to the solenoid. Are you saying that there might be a voltage drop between the solenoid and the cable and / or the other end of the cable and the battery? The possibility seems very minimal, but I will check.The solenoid activates and holds in with the starter cable off but chatters with the starter connected. Voltage drop on the circuit from the starter load. This would be somewhere from the battery to the solenoid and would show up at the battery side of the solenoid. Just have to test back from the solenoid to the battery to find where this happens.
And thanks again for all the help and interest.
Bob Bell
1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.
1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.
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Re: Not starting with key start
Hello Bob,
In the original Ford tractors the solenoid 11450 was ground activated. Here is the wiring diagram.
My solenoid is the one found in my jeep before the restauration. It is likely a Ford solenoid from the early Fifties.
Here is the original jeep (G503) foot switch wiring, 6V positive activated directly to the starter:
I had to rewire the foot switch for ground activation like this.
I suspect that your starter key switch is connected to the +6V.
If you do not want to rewire the key switch, just place a 6V relay between the switch and the solenoid S post.
Wire the relay, so that when activated with a positive signal, one of the contacts will ground the solenoid S post.
It will act like an electrical inverter.
Such a 6V relay is easy to find for horn or other accessories in vintage cars.
I have recently found a 6V 40A relay on amazon.fr
Yves
In the original Ford tractors the solenoid 11450 was ground activated. Here is the wiring diagram.
My solenoid is the one found in my jeep before the restauration. It is likely a Ford solenoid from the early Fifties.
Here is the original jeep (G503) foot switch wiring, 6V positive activated directly to the starter:
I had to rewire the foot switch for ground activation like this.
I suspect that your starter key switch is connected to the +6V.
If you do not want to rewire the key switch, just place a 6V relay between the switch and the solenoid S post.
Wire the relay, so that when activated with a positive signal, one of the contacts will ground the solenoid S post.
It will act like an electrical inverter.
Such a 6V relay is easy to find for horn or other accessories in vintage cars.
I have recently found a 6V 40A relay on amazon.fr
Yves
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Re: Not starting with key start
OK. Looks like you have a solenoid that should have the small terminal grounded to activate.
Back in my description of this type of solenoid I said power to the winding that engages the solenoid comes from one of the big posts on the side of the solenoid.
Having the battery and starter cable on the correct post is critical. The internal coil power only comes from the battery side big terminal.
If the battery & starter cable are reversed, the activating coil will be internally connected to the starter side. Grounding the small terminal will do nothing, but in this configuration, putting B+ on the small terminal completes the circuit to ground through the starter, activating the solenoid until the solenoid contacts make contact, then the starter side goes to B+ voltage. Now you have B+ on both sides of the solenoid activating coil and it shuts down, the solenoid shuts off until the contacts open and the activating coil internal starter connection goes back to ground potential. The solenoid reactivates. Around & around it goes.
The solenoid chatters and the starter drive jumps in & out as this happens over & over.
To start, take all the wires off the solenoid. Ohm meter set to test continuity. One test probe on the small terminal and the other probe to each big terminal and to the solenoid base. Find where the end of the activating coil is internally connected.
If to the solenoid base, it should have B+ put on the small terminal to activate the solenoid.
If you make contact on one of the big terminals, that terminal should have the battery cable on it and the starter cable on the opposite big terminal, to the starter.
Now the small terminal would be grounded to activate.
Foot note: The early type solenoid was changed on later vehicles to the type that required B+ on the small terminal for safety reasons. On the early type, the solenoid had power to the solenoid all the time and any accidental grounding of the small terminal or wire to the terminal would activate the solenoid and starter and the engine would crank over. If the vehicle was in gear or body parts were in the wrong place when this happens, not good !
Back in my description of this type of solenoid I said power to the winding that engages the solenoid comes from one of the big posts on the side of the solenoid.
Having the battery and starter cable on the correct post is critical. The internal coil power only comes from the battery side big terminal.
If the battery & starter cable are reversed, the activating coil will be internally connected to the starter side. Grounding the small terminal will do nothing, but in this configuration, putting B+ on the small terminal completes the circuit to ground through the starter, activating the solenoid until the solenoid contacts make contact, then the starter side goes to B+ voltage. Now you have B+ on both sides of the solenoid activating coil and it shuts down, the solenoid shuts off until the contacts open and the activating coil internal starter connection goes back to ground potential. The solenoid reactivates. Around & around it goes.
The solenoid chatters and the starter drive jumps in & out as this happens over & over.
To start, take all the wires off the solenoid. Ohm meter set to test continuity. One test probe on the small terminal and the other probe to each big terminal and to the solenoid base. Find where the end of the activating coil is internally connected.
If to the solenoid base, it should have B+ put on the small terminal to activate the solenoid.
If you make contact on one of the big terminals, that terminal should have the battery cable on it and the starter cable on the opposite big terminal, to the starter.
Now the small terminal would be grounded to activate.
Foot note: The early type solenoid was changed on later vehicles to the type that required B+ on the small terminal for safety reasons. On the early type, the solenoid had power to the solenoid all the time and any accidental grounding of the small terminal or wire to the terminal would activate the solenoid and starter and the engine would crank over. If the vehicle was in gear or body parts were in the wrong place when this happens, not good !
Mike Wolford
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VEP GPW
Comm./Inst. SEL
AOPA ( 50 yrs)
EAA ( 49 yrs)
4th Inf. Div. - 5th Inf. Div. - 2nd Armor Div. - CIB
CJ-2A
VEP GPW
Comm./Inst. SEL
AOPA ( 50 yrs)
EAA ( 49 yrs)
4th Inf. Div. - 5th Inf. Div. - 2nd Armor Div. - CIB
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Re: Not starting with key start
What a wonderful place this forum is!
Huge and heartfelt 'Thank Yous' to Yves and Mike for identifying the problem, and showing how to correct it.
Today I will be scouring the city of Oakland - my home - for a 6v 40 amp relay ...
Then I will begin tidying up my wiring, going from power source to ammeter etc ... and hopefully inserting the relay, which equally hopefully, I will find.
Thanks again!
Huge and heartfelt 'Thank Yous' to Yves and Mike for identifying the problem, and showing how to correct it.
Today I will be scouring the city of Oakland - my home - for a 6v 40 amp relay ...
Then I will begin tidying up my wiring, going from power source to ammeter etc ... and hopefully inserting the relay, which equally hopefully, I will find.
Thanks again!
Bob Bell
1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.
1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.
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Re: Not starting with key start
If you do not find it, here is a relay that should do the job:Bob Bell wrote: ↑Tue Jun 14, 2022 6:44 amWhat a wonderful place this forum is!
Huge and heartfelt 'Thank Yous' to Yves and Mike for identifying the problem, and showing how to correct it.
Today I will be scouring the city of Oakland - my home - for a 6v 40 amp relay ...
Then I will begin tidying up my wiring, going from power source to ammeter etc ... and hopefully inserting the relay, which equally hopefully, I will find.
Thanks again!
https://www.amazon.com/TE-CONNECTIVITY- ... 132&sr=8-3
Yves
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serial 164794
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Re: Not starting with key start
The solenoid in your picture is not what Bob is in need of Yves. He does not need a 40 amp relay. A 400 amp starter relay that will handle the load through a heavy battery cable while engaging the starter. Initial engagement will pull 400+ amps but once the starter cranking speed increases, the load should drop back to around 200 to 300 amps.
It will look similar to what I think Bob has now. A round metal can with a mounting bracket attached. Two large studs on each side and a single smaller stud somewhere on the side between the two large studs. The activating button on the end is optional.
He said the starter solenoid he is using now is for an old Allis Chalmers, Massey Ferguson or Ford tractor. Some cars & trucks including Willys. 1950's era.
It will look the same only activation is different.
Instead of grounding the small terminal on the solenoid to engage, B+ would be applied to the small terminal. In this case, that would need to be 6 volts.
It will look similar to what I think Bob has now. A round metal can with a mounting bracket attached. Two large studs on each side and a single smaller stud somewhere on the side between the two large studs. The activating button on the end is optional.
He said the starter solenoid he is using now is for an old Allis Chalmers, Massey Ferguson or Ford tractor. Some cars & trucks including Willys. 1950's era.
It will look the same only activation is different.
Instead of grounding the small terminal on the solenoid to engage, B+ would be applied to the small terminal. In this case, that would need to be 6 volts.
Mike Wolford
CJ-2A
VEP GPW
Comm./Inst. SEL
AOPA ( 50 yrs)
EAA ( 49 yrs)
4th Inf. Div. - 5th Inf. Div. - 2nd Armor Div. - CIB
CJ-2A
VEP GPW
Comm./Inst. SEL
AOPA ( 50 yrs)
EAA ( 49 yrs)
4th Inf. Div. - 5th Inf. Div. - 2nd Armor Div. - CIB
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Re: Not starting with key start
I just returned from the local Napa store, looking for a relay similar to that which Yves suggested. They did not have one. So I thought, 'should be simpler to just repace the solenoid with one activates with B+'. I looked all through their catalog but all the 6V ones they had were activated by B-. So I came home and ordered the relays from Amazon. (They come in a pack of two).
So now reading Mike's last post I am even more confused! If that is possible.
So I should just return the relays? Or try to make them work with the solenoid I have? Or find a solenoid with B+ activation?
So now reading Mike's last post I am even more confused! If that is possible.
So I should just return the relays? Or try to make them work with the solenoid I have? Or find a solenoid with B+ activation?
Bob Bell
1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.
1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.
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Re: Not starting with key start
Running a jumper wire from the negative post on the battery to the S terminal on the solenoid engages the starter. So placing the relay in the line between the key start and the solenoid, and thus reversing the polarity should work as Yves suggested.
Bob Bell
1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.
1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.
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Re: Not starting with key start
If it helps, this outfit has several types of vintage 6 volt solenoids available:
https://brillman.com/?s=solenoid&post_t ... ssolenoids
Good luck!
https://brillman.com/?s=solenoid&post_t ... ssolenoids
Good luck!
Ron D
1951 M38
1951 M100
1951 M38
1951 M100
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