Not starting with key start
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Not starting with key start
I am in the process of finishing a rebuild of a 1951 3A. Have rebuilt everything from springs, axles, trans, OD, transfer, engine, brakes, and steering and have installed a new wiring harness from Carl Walck, with turn signals. I forgot when ordering the harness to tell him that I was converting to a key start, as I did not have a 6-volt starter with a foot-operated solenoid on the top of it. (My other jeep, a 2A, has the same foot start as the MB, which is basically a foot switch).
SO I have bought a new ignition switch with a start position. And a new 6 volt battery, and a new 6 volt solenoid, which is mounted on the firewall. The solenoid has a button that one can depress to engage the starter when working in the engine compartment. When I push this button, the starter engages and turns the engine. When I try to turn the engine using the key, the starter fails to engage.It whirs and attempts an engagement, but does not mesh. I have taken the starter out and had it examined by a starter/alternator shop. The guy there said there was nothing wrong with the starter. Can it be the solenoid is not getting enough power to depress the plunger to engage the starter fully? I have checked all the cables and connections. All are clean. Using a DVM I find there is no resistance between the engine and the frame - all is grounded as should be.
I printed out Artificer's flow chart of starter problems and have followed it carefully. I checked out the youTube video as suggested - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhRPLgH6uZg and find there is a voltage drop of 1 and a half volts when cranking using the push button, but was not able to check the drop when using the key switch due to the lack of sufficient jumpers. This I will do tomorrow.
I do understand the importance of good grounding with 6 volt systems, and having the engine grounded to the frame. Indeed it is, with a brand new strap. The battery cables are brand new, and the cable from the solenoid to the starter is clean and is a 1/4 inch thick which is what I understand a #2 cable should be. I am running #12 wire from the starter to the solenoid, and #12 from the battery (solenoid end) to the ignition switch.
As the starter works perfectly using the push button on the solenoid, I have to conclude the problem lies between the ignition switch and the starter. I have replaced the solenoid but nothing changed.
Any ideas? I know I am missing something, but what?
SO I have bought a new ignition switch with a start position. And a new 6 volt battery, and a new 6 volt solenoid, which is mounted on the firewall. The solenoid has a button that one can depress to engage the starter when working in the engine compartment. When I push this button, the starter engages and turns the engine. When I try to turn the engine using the key, the starter fails to engage.It whirs and attempts an engagement, but does not mesh. I have taken the starter out and had it examined by a starter/alternator shop. The guy there said there was nothing wrong with the starter. Can it be the solenoid is not getting enough power to depress the plunger to engage the starter fully? I have checked all the cables and connections. All are clean. Using a DVM I find there is no resistance between the engine and the frame - all is grounded as should be.
I printed out Artificer's flow chart of starter problems and have followed it carefully. I checked out the youTube video as suggested - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhRPLgH6uZg and find there is a voltage drop of 1 and a half volts when cranking using the push button, but was not able to check the drop when using the key switch due to the lack of sufficient jumpers. This I will do tomorrow.
I do understand the importance of good grounding with 6 volt systems, and having the engine grounded to the frame. Indeed it is, with a brand new strap. The battery cables are brand new, and the cable from the solenoid to the starter is clean and is a 1/4 inch thick which is what I understand a #2 cable should be. I am running #12 wire from the starter to the solenoid, and #12 from the battery (solenoid end) to the ignition switch.
As the starter works perfectly using the push button on the solenoid, I have to conclude the problem lies between the ignition switch and the starter. I have replaced the solenoid but nothing changed.
Any ideas? I know I am missing something, but what?
Bob Bell
1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.
1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.
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Re: Not starting with key start
Checked the voltage drop when using the start position on the ignition switch - voltage measures 3.6 volts so the problem lies behind the dash.
I will report back!
I will report back!
Bob Bell
1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.
1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.
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Re: Not starting with key start
Was preparing a response but you beat me to one of my suggestions. Hopefully, you find the problem!
Rus Curtis
'54 CJ-3B
T3-C
'54 CJ-3B
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Re: Not starting with key start
Hello,
You need to check if your key switch is grounding the connection to the solenoid or putting +6V to the solenoid.
There are different solenoids
yves
You need to check if your key switch is grounding the connection to the solenoid or putting +6V to the solenoid.
There are different solenoids
yves
Ford GPW 1943 - Louisville - DoD 12-7-43
serial 164794
serial 164794
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Re: Not starting with key start
Well, thanks for thinking of me Rus!
Here is the latest.
Power flows from the battery to the solenoid (New battery pos cable)
From there to light switch (new 12 guage cable with soldered ends)
From there to ign switch (battery connection)
From start connection on ign switch to solenoid (small terminal).
All connections clean and tight.
I disconnected the solenoid end of the wire running from the start position of the ignition switch, and attached a probe to my DVMM. I attached the other probe to the positive post of the battery, on the understanding that if I turned the key to start, I should have continuity. With the key in 'start', the DVMM registered 28 ohms resistance.
This ignition switch is brand new, but am I correct in thinking the problem must lie here?
Here is the latest.
Power flows from the battery to the solenoid (New battery pos cable)
From there to light switch (new 12 guage cable with soldered ends)
From there to ign switch (battery connection)
From start connection on ign switch to solenoid (small terminal).
All connections clean and tight.
I disconnected the solenoid end of the wire running from the start position of the ignition switch, and attached a probe to my DVMM. I attached the other probe to the positive post of the battery, on the understanding that if I turned the key to start, I should have continuity. With the key in 'start', the DVMM registered 28 ohms resistance.
This ignition switch is brand new, but am I correct in thinking the problem must lie here?
Bob Bell
1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.
1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.
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- G-Command Sergeant Major
- Posts: 204
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Re: Not starting with key start
Thanks for jumping in Yves. I measured about 3.6 volts at the solenoid with the key engaged. Enough to make the starter waken, but not enough to engage with the flywheel. I am thinking that the 28 ohms resistance is the cause of the voltage drop.Hello,
You need to check if your key switch is grounding the connection to the solenoid or putting +6V to the solenoid.
There are different solenoids
yves
Bob Bell
1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.
1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.
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Re: Not starting with key start
In my limited understanding (and overly simplified explanation) of the solenoid function, the small post receives power from your ign switch to close (activate) the circuit inside the solenoid. This connects the two heavy posts - the one from the battery and the one to the starter. That completes the starter circuit for the starter to engage the flywheel.
The button you have on the solenoid does this (I'm guessing) mechanically to complete the same circuit.
In your test, am I understanding correctly that you disconnect the ignition wire? And then you probe the post or the wire? That ignition wire should have 6V (only when the key is turned to "Start" and the post from the battery would also be 6V.
If I were wanting to do a continuity to check solenoid function, I would disconnect both battery and starter cables from the large posts but leave the ignition wire connected. Turn the key and measure continuity between the two disconnected large posts - to see if the ignition post is closing the circuit. If the voltage going into the ignition post isn't reading 6V (at the post) to fully close the internal circuit, I would check the post on the ignition switch to see if there's internal resistance there.
If this is counter to how things work, hopefully someone can correct what I'm thinking.
The button you have on the solenoid does this (I'm guessing) mechanically to complete the same circuit.
In your test, am I understanding correctly that you disconnect the ignition wire? And then you probe the post or the wire? That ignition wire should have 6V (only when the key is turned to "Start" and the post from the battery would also be 6V.
If I were wanting to do a continuity to check solenoid function, I would disconnect both battery and starter cables from the large posts but leave the ignition wire connected. Turn the key and measure continuity between the two disconnected large posts - to see if the ignition post is closing the circuit. If the voltage going into the ignition post isn't reading 6V (at the post) to fully close the internal circuit, I would check the post on the ignition switch to see if there's internal resistance there.
If this is counter to how things work, hopefully someone can correct what I'm thinking.
Rus Curtis
'54 CJ-3B
T3-C
'54 CJ-3B
T3-C
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Re: Not starting with key start
Correctby Rus Curtis » Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:01 pm. In my limited understanding (and overly simplified explanation) of the solenoid function, the small post receives power from your ign switch to close (activate) the circuit inside the solenoid. This connects the two heavy posts - the one from the battery and the one to the starter. That completes the starter circuit for the starter to engage the flywheel.
The button you have on the solenoid does this (I'm guessing) mechanically to complete the same circuit.
I disconnected the ignition wire from the solenoid, and put my probe at the end of that wire I had just disconnected.by Rus Curtis » Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:01 pm In your test, am I understanding correctly that you disconnect the ignition wire? And then you probe the post or the wire? That ignition wire should have 6V (only when the key is turned to "Start" and the post from the battery would also be 6V.
Agreed, but the test showed 3.6 volts. Hence my suspicion that the ignition switch is at fault.by Rus Curtis » Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:01 pm. That ignition wire should have 6V (only when the key is turned to "Start" and the post from the battery would also be 6V.
By disconnecting the ignition wire ( which I did because 1, I could not bear the sound of the starter not fully engaging, and 2, because it was easier that way to attach my probe and check for voltage drop), I did in fact ascertain that the solenoid wasn't receiving 6 volts.by Rus Curtis » Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:01 pm If I were wanting to do a continuity to check solenoid function, I would disconnect both battery and starter cables from the large posts but leave the ignition wire connected. Turn the key and measure continuity between the two disconnected large posts - to see if the ignition post is closing the circuit. If the voltage going into the ignition post isn't reading 6V (at the post) to fully close the internal circuit, I would check the post on the ignition switch to see if there's internal resistance there.
This is what I have done so far in attempting to narrow down the problem. There is continuity all the way to the battery terminal on the ign switch, but 28 ohms at the switch post when the key is in the 'start' position. So please correct me if I am wrong, but is this not proving there is internal resistance within the switch?by Bob Bell » Sat Jun 11, 2022 8:59 am. I disconnected the solenoid end of the wire running from the start position of the ignition switch, and attached a probe to my DVMM. I attached the other probe to the positive post of the battery, on the understanding that if I turned the key to start, I should have continuity. With the key in 'start', the DVMM registered 28 ohms resistance.
And Rus, thank you for your suggestions. It really is reassuring to know that there are folks out there with knowledge and encouragement.
Bob Bell
1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.
1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.
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Re: Not starting with key start
Thanks for clarifying. Hard to "see" what you're looking at.
If you're getting half the volts from the ignition switch through that solenoid wire, I'd definitely look at that switch more closely. Also, couldn't you jump a known 6V source to that terminal to see if it closes the solenoid circuit?
Would like to know how this ends up.
If you're getting half the volts from the ignition switch through that solenoid wire, I'd definitely look at that switch more closely. Also, couldn't you jump a known 6V source to that terminal to see if it closes the solenoid circuit?
Would like to know how this ends up.
Rus Curtis
'54 CJ-3B
T3-C
'54 CJ-3B
T3-C
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Re: Not starting with key start
Of course ... obvious idea. So obvious it never occurred to me!Also, couldn't you jump a known 6V source to that terminal to see if it closes the solenoid circuit?
Will try in the morning and report back.
Now is the time for a glass of wine!
Manana, Rus.
Bob Bell
1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.
1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.
- YLG80
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Re: Not starting with key start
A little glass of Zinfandel from Napa Valley?
Yves
Ford GPW 1943 - Louisville - DoD 12-7-43
serial 164794
serial 164794
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Re: Not starting with key start
Grinding this around the gray matter. Maybe a slight pun intended.
The 12 ga. wire from the battery side of the solenoid goes to the light switch and then back to the ignition switch. ??? Why ??
Do you have an amp gauge ???
I would think the 12 ga. wire from the solenoid would go to the amp gauge ( if you have one ) and then on to the ignition switch. Or straight to the ign. switch with no gauge. Not to the light switch and then back to the ignition switch.
I like the idea of a test jumper from the battery directly to the solenoid activation terminal. See what happens.
Voltage test. Take the big starter cable loose from the starter so you don't have listen to the starter trying to self destruct during the test. Leave everything else connected. Test the voltage at the solenoid activation terminal. The "start" and the "Batt" terminal on the ignition switch and the Battery side of the solenoid with the key in the start position. You want everything connected so the activation circuit is under load during the test. You are looking for a voltage drop. Find a voltage drop and the problem is between the low voltage point and the last test point the voltage was OK. With the starter disconnected, the voltage should stay close to normal battery voltage.
The last test also comes under the heading of a " Smoke Test". With the cable off the starter, you can hold the ign. key in the start position longer. If there is a high resistance point in the activation circuit, it will heat up. Watch for smoke !
I know you said you have a 6 volt solenoid, but are you sure it is not 12 volt ??
Does the solenoid have a good ground ?? A voltage check with the Ign. switch in the start position from the solenoid body to ground should be zero.
The 12 ga. wire from the battery side of the solenoid goes to the light switch and then back to the ignition switch. ??? Why ??
Do you have an amp gauge ???
I would think the 12 ga. wire from the solenoid would go to the amp gauge ( if you have one ) and then on to the ignition switch. Or straight to the ign. switch with no gauge. Not to the light switch and then back to the ignition switch.
I like the idea of a test jumper from the battery directly to the solenoid activation terminal. See what happens.
Voltage test. Take the big starter cable loose from the starter so you don't have listen to the starter trying to self destruct during the test. Leave everything else connected. Test the voltage at the solenoid activation terminal. The "start" and the "Batt" terminal on the ignition switch and the Battery side of the solenoid with the key in the start position. You want everything connected so the activation circuit is under load during the test. You are looking for a voltage drop. Find a voltage drop and the problem is between the low voltage point and the last test point the voltage was OK. With the starter disconnected, the voltage should stay close to normal battery voltage.
The last test also comes under the heading of a " Smoke Test". With the cable off the starter, you can hold the ign. key in the start position longer. If there is a high resistance point in the activation circuit, it will heat up. Watch for smoke !
I know you said you have a 6 volt solenoid, but are you sure it is not 12 volt ??
Does the solenoid have a good ground ?? A voltage check with the Ign. switch in the start position from the solenoid body to ground should be zero.
Mike Wolford
CJ-2A
VEP GPW
Comm./Inst. SEL
AOPA ( 50 yrs)
EAA ( 49 yrs)
4th Inf. Div. - 5th Inf. Div. - 2nd Armor Div. - CIB
CJ-2A
VEP GPW
Comm./Inst. SEL
AOPA ( 50 yrs)
EAA ( 49 yrs)
4th Inf. Div. - 5th Inf. Div. - 2nd Armor Div. - CIB
- dpcd67
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Re: Not starting with key start
If I was building a 3A, which I have done, and converting it to Key start; I would have gone with 12 volt and a new starter. Then we would not be having this conversation. It would have worked with out drama. I know because I have done it.
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Re: Not starting with key start
by Wolfman » Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:41 am.
Good simple question ... long involved answer which has to do with the fact that that I ordered a wiring harness without provision for either key start or a solenoid. All is wired as per instructions that came with the harness. So yes, I do have an ammeter, and yes. you are right, it should be wired from the battery to ammeter to ignition to lights etc. I have gone through so many mental convolutions trying to get this thing to work that I honestly can't recall just why I added these extra wires the way I did. It must have seemed a very Good Idea at the time. I'm taking today off from the project, but will go through it again and rewire it correctly tomorrow.The 12 ga. wire from the battery side of the solenoid goes to the light switch and then back to the ignition switch. ??? Why ??
I did jump a wire from the battery to the solenoid terminal. The plunger in the solenoid bounced up and down as the starter tried to engage. With the cable to the starter disconnected, the plunger stayed down, making that familiar 'click'. Attaching a probe to the end of the disconnected wire from the 'start' position on the ign switch, I registered 6.1 volts. No voltage drop. And obviously, no ign switch problem. And thankfully, no smoke released.
Yes, the solenoid IS 6 volt!
Zero voltage, thus good ground.Does the solenoid have a good ground ?? A voltage check with the Ign. switch in the start position from the solenoid body to ground should be zero.
Thank you Mike for very good advice, and pointing out the wiring misadventures ....
I am back to thinking about the starter. When I took it out and bench tested it, the engagement gear shot out as expected, but after a couple of seconds, it retracteded about half an inch, still spinning. This was why I took it to a starter / alternator shop. The guy there tested it, and declared it OK, but now I am wondering if the Bendix is weak. What puzzles me is why, when I manually push the plunger button on the solenoid, does the starter work correctly, and why does it not when it is asked to do the same job electrically? Is it because the force of my thumb on the plunger is greater than the electrical force attempting to do the same thing? Should I do a voltage check on my thumb? Sorry .. couldn't resist that.
Thanks again for all the advice and interest ... it really is appreciated.
And Yves, the wine was Pinot Noir from Napa.
Bob Bell
1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.
1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.
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Re: Not starting with key start
In addition to that, I would also have dumped the generator and put in an alternator.Post by dpcd67 » Sun Jun 12, 2022 10:01 am
If I was building a 3A, which I have done, and converting it to Key start; I would have gone with 12 volt and a new starter. Then we would not be having this conversation. It would have worked with out drama. I know because I have done it.
But I didn't. Call it an old man's whim, or call it lunacy. Or both. For both would be correct.
Bob Bell
1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.
1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.
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