How To Identify a WWII MBT or Bantam 1/4 Ton Trailer

Quarter-ton trailer series, Wanted, USED PARTS FOR SALE NO EBAY or COMMERCIAL SALES., and Knowledge Base
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Nigel123
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Re: How To Identify a WWII MBT or Bantam 1/4 Ton Trailer

Post by Nigel123 » Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:49 am

Hi Chuck
Have sent you an e mail answering all the questions.
I have a Jeep Trailer I bought in France and am hoping to restore.
Could you give me approx date and serial number I would need to stamp on my new data plate.

Thanks
Nigel Reddish


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Re: How To Identify a WWII MBT or Bantam 1/4 Ton Trailer

Post by Robbmic » Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:44 pm

Hello Chuck. Would be interested in the USA number on this one. Thank you for your time and interest.

1) Data Plate: If yours is present, what is the info stamped on it? How many "fields" are available for stamping info?

Two Fields: Serial Number 16227 and Date of Delivery 12-42

2) USA Number: Wet sand an upper corner area to see how many coats of paint are on the rear panel. Then SLOWLY wet sand right under the rear top hook to find the "USA", in doing that you will now know what to look for when you sand just above the lower frame rail looking for the eight numbers usually found on the rear panel...you may find White or Blue paint used here.

Cannot Find

3) ACM Number: American Central MFG. made the tub/frame assembly. They put a number on the gusset plate under the left front spring hanger so remove it and wire-wheel the gusset looking for numbers about 7/16" in height. You may find a "B" or "W" in front, behind or below the number.

W24269

4) Upper Shock Mount: Is it threaded or cotter-pin type? Is it RIVETED or BOLTED to the frame? Is the LOWER shock mount threaded or cotter-pin?

Upper shock mount riveted to frame, cotter pin style
Lower shock mount cotter pin style

5) Is the axel a straight tube, with a welded seam in the middle or does it have a center cast section?

Three piece with the center casting

6) Springs: How many leaves in the springs? Eight or ten? Standard FLAT Willys type or a flattened "U" shape? Are the spring clips with the closure on the top or the bottom?

Eight Springs, flat style spring clip closures on bottom

7) Taillights & Reflectors: What is the mfg of the taillight buckets and doors? What about the reflector bezels? Check to see if the reflectors have the bolt HEADS inside the tub. See if they have any lead washers on them.

Missing tail lights and reflectors

Taillight Mounts: Standard "L" brackets bolted to the tub or welded on?

Bolted on

9) Numbers: Look on the top or sides of the drawbars, check the edge of the front of the tub where the handbrake is bolted and look on the left side of the frame near the front of the trailer frame. Any numbers stamped there?

None

10) Bolts: Check the markings (if any) on the bolt heads on the fenders or other bolts on the trailer. (A, AA, EC, BC or others or none?)

Bolts on fenders have A on top of them

11) Unit Numbers: Most outfits did NOT mark the rear frame beneath the tub with the unit info but some did. Wet sand this area carefully also, there may be several coats of paint and several units markings!

3A 555 AAA HQ31

Scrumps
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Re: How To Identify a WWII MBT or Bantam 1/4 Ton Trailer

Post by Scrumps » Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:47 am

Chuck Lutz wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:52 am
My data base is based on reported trailers information.

A trailer with an ACM number of "113xxx" would be an April 1944 range.
A trailer with a USA Number in the "0845xxx" range would be in the April 1945 range.

In other words, they don't jibe. Since you have only the "original" ACM number to go by, then it is an April 1944 production as I have given you. A repainted USA Number is not too hard to do. Re-stamping the ACM number on the tub gusset is.

Which do you want to believe has more chance of being "original"?
Chuck,

I’ve just cut out the rear panel in my trailer we were discussing above. “They don’t jibe” is quite correct.

It appears the French army seam welded in a (later) replacement rear panel as I’ve found evidence of the original spot welded rear panel BEHIND the replacement at the edge seams.

I’ll be using the number you gave me for the re-paint, but at least our combined activity appears to have unravelled the truth.

Scrumps

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Re: How To Identify a WWII MBT or Bantam 1/4 Ton Trailer

Post by Wouter » Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:57 am

Hi all,

Here's an update on the Willys MBT.
ACM Number: W15142
USA Number: 0168843
No data plate attached.
Is there somebody who can help me to find the DoD? Chuck? Alsmost all pal nuts were still in place, so I suppose he's pretty unrestored. I found a lot of nice details such as the "blood red" brake shoe spring, A, AA, EC A TR, AFNC bolts, toothed washer on the drain plug screw, …
If any questions,shoot. If you send me your email address, I'll send you some detailed pics.
Wouter wrote:
Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:07 am
1) Data Plate:
No Data Plate
2) USA Number: Wet sand an upper corner area to see how many coats of paint are on the rear panel. Then SLOWLY wet sand right under the rear top hook to find the "USA", in doing that you will now know what to look for when you sand just above the lower frame rail looking for the eight numbers usually found on the rear panel...you may find White or Blue paint used here.
USA 0168843
3) ACM Number: American Central MFG. made the tub/frame assembly. They put a number on the gusset plate under the left front spring hanger so remove it and wire-wheel the gusset looking for numbers about 7/16" in height. You may find a "B" or "W" in front, behind or below the number.
W 15142
4) Upper Shock Mount: Is it threaded or cotter-pin type? Is it RIVETED or BOLTED to the frame? Is the LOWER shock mount threaded or cotter-pin?
5) Is the axel a straight tube, with a welded seam in the middle or does it have a center cast section?
6) Springs: How many leaves in the springs? Eight, with U shaped clip, bolt and nutor ten? Standard FLAT Willys type or a flattened "U" shape? Are the spring clips with the closure on the top or the bottom?
7) Taillights & Reflectors: What is the mfg of the taillight buckets and doors? What about the reflector bezels? Check to see if the reflectors have the bolt HEADS inside the tub. See if they have any lead washers on them.
no lights or reflectors attached
8 ) Taillight Mounts: Standard "L" brackets bolted to the tub or welded?
9) Numbers: Look on the top or sides of the drawbars, check the edge of the front of the tub where the handbrake is bolted and look on the left side of the frame near the front of the trailer frame. Any numbers stamped there?
TBC
10) Bolts: Check the markings (if any) on the bolt heads on the fenders or other bolts on the trailer. (A, AA, A TR, EC, ACFN
11) Unit Numbers: Most outfits did NOT mark the rear frame beneath the tub with the unit info but some did. Wet sand this area carefully also, there may be several coats of paint and several units markings!
TBC

Image
ImageImage
Image
Image
Ford GPW 270404
Willys MBT USA 0168843
Bantam T3 22885
https://www.facebook.com/groups/636335026402407/

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Re: How To Identify a WWII MBT or Bantam 1/4 Ton Trailer

Post by can maker » Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:21 am

Hi All,

A new one (I guess):

1) Data Plate: Only 3 of the 4 brass rivets partly in place:
Image

2) USA Number: PO sandblasted already the body, so gone.

3) ACM Number: W 11706

Image

4) Upper Shock Mount Is RIVETED to the frame:

Image

The LOWER shock mount is cotter-pinned.


5) The axel has a center cast section:

Image

6) Spring is an Eight, Standard FLAT Willys type or a flattened "U" shape? Are the spring clips with the closure on the top or the bottom type, not sure if it is Willys, top or bottom, please let me know, see pics:

ImageImageImage

7) Taillights & Reflectors: all removed by PO.

8) Taillight Mounts: all removed by PO

9) Numbers: body was blasted by PO

10) Bolts:

brackets on frame: an A

Image

Towbars on frame: C/R

Image


11) Unit Numbers: body was blasted, some other numbers found:

ImageImage

General pics:

ImageImageImageImageImageImage


If anyone could tell me:

DOD?
What would be correct data for a new data plate?
Correct Army number ?
What are the other numbers referring to (AF=Armee Francaise???, and what does it say?)
Any other info?

All response is highly appreciated!

Thanks,

Reinder Jager


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Re: How To Identify a WWII MBT or Bantam 1/4 Ton Trailer

Post by can maker » Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:40 am

To all,

Some extra information belonging to previous post:

Two extra pics, could these be residuals welds from the light brackets?, one pic from
Left side and one pic from Right side?

I see no mounting holes for bolted on brackets.

ImageImage


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Re: How To Identify a WWII MBT or Bantam 1/4 Ton Trailer

Post by Parsons GPW » Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:37 am

Hi Chuck,

I had a post running in the 1/4 Ton trailer section but am now moving it to this post as I discovered its the best place for it! I bought this trailer recently thinking it was WW2, but I am now thinking it might not be. I have had suggestions that it could be a Luther-Jordan or Mitsubishi?
I did find another post about Luther-Jordan trailers and mine certainly does have some of the features (domed rivet on front of frame, the indentations on the side don't go into the uppermost vertical panel of the tub, the data plate position, the small hole in the rear panel that is offset to the left (WW2 trailers had hole offset to the right?).
If you can help sort out the confusion, that would be great! I'll be disappointed if its not WW2 era, but there's nothing I can do about that now!

1) Data Plate: If yours is present, what is the info stamped on it? How many "fields" are available for stamping info?
Data plate is not present, but I think I can see the outline in the lower left side where a long thin plate would have been? (photo)

2) USA Number: Wet sand an upper corner area to see how many coats of paint are on the rear panel. Then SLOWLY wet sand right under the rear top hook to find the "USA", in doing that you will now know what to look for when you sand just above the lower frame rail looking for the eight numbers usually found on the rear panel...you may find White or Blue paint used here.
I sanded the back but came straight down on bare steel after 1 coat of paint and the undercoat. I assume the previous owner sandblasted the tub at least.

3) ACM Number: American Central MFG. made the tub/frame assembly. They put a number on the gusset plate under the left front spring hanger so remove it and wire-wheel the gusset looking for numbers about 7/16" in height. You may find a "B" or "W" in front, behind or below the number. Be advised that the VEP production of MBTs seem to have had the ACM number/letter stamped on the lip of the tub next to where the handbrake is bolted on rather than on the gusset! This would be approximately the first 1,500 units as far as I can tell at this point in time.
There is no ACM number. I have sanded back the gusset plate and it is not there (photo)

4) Upper Shock Mount: Is it threaded or cotter-pin type? Is it RIVETED or BOLTED to the frame? Is the LOWER shock mount threaded or cotter-pin?
Upper shock mount is cotter-pin type and bolyed to the frame (photo). The lower shock mount is cotter-pin type (photo).

5) Is the axel a straight tube, with a welded seam in the middle or does it have a center cast section?
The axle is a stright tube with no seam weld (photo)

6) Springs: How many leaves in the springs? Eight or ten? Standard FLAT Willys type or a flattened "U" shape? Are the spring clips with the closure on the top or the bottom?
There are 8 leaves in the Springs and they are flattened "U" with clips closure at top (photo).

7) Taillights & Reflectors: What is the mfg of the taillight buckets and doors? What about the reflector bezels? Check to see if the reflectors have the bolt HEADS inside the tub. See if they have any lead washers on them.
Taillight Mounts: Standard "L" brackets bolted to the tub or welded on?

The taillight bucket that is present is manufactured by Marchel of France. The reflector bezels are the "cut-off" shape type (photo). The L brackets are bolted to the tub (photo).

9) Numbers: Look on the top or sides of the drawbars, check the edge of the front of the tub where the handbrake is bolted and look on the left side of the frame near the front of the trailer frame. Any numbers stamped there?

The only number that I have been able to find so far is on the frame (side) just around the corner to where the handbrake is (photo).

10) Bolts: Check the markings (if any) on the bolt heads on the fenders or other bolts on the trailer. (A, AA, EC, BC or others or none?)

Please see photo of bolt head. They all seem to be this type (photo)

11) Unit Numbers: Most outfits did NOT mark the rear frame beneath the tub with the unit info but some did. Wet sand this area carefully also, there may be several coats of paint and several units markings!

Not done this yet.


Matt.
Attachments
Fire Extinguisher bracket.jpg
Fire Extinguisher bracket.jpg (48.54 KiB) Viewed 680 times
Drain underneath.jpg
Drain underneath.jpg (77.4 KiB) Viewed 680 times
Cotter pin upper shock.jpg
Cotter pin upper shock.jpg (50.83 KiB) Viewed 680 times
cotter pin lower shock.jpg
cotter pin lower shock.jpg (49.06 KiB) Viewed 680 times
Cotte rpin lower shock.jpg
Cotte rpin lower shock.jpg (54.06 KiB) Viewed 680 times
Chain 11 link, rounded hooks.jpg
Chain 11 link, rounded hooks.jpg (99.46 KiB) Viewed 680 times
bolted and coter pin upper shock mount.jpg
bolted and coter pin upper shock mount.jpg (47.69 KiB) Viewed 680 times
8 leaf spring.jpg
8 leaf spring.jpg (46.8 KiB) Viewed 680 times
2 Front tie-down loops.jpg
2 Front tie-down loops.jpg (47.3 KiB) Viewed 680 times
1 rear tie-down loop.jpg
1 rear tie-down loop.jpg (47.85 KiB) Viewed 680 times
MB 346447 (06/44)
ACM II Tub 143790 (09/44)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ivzx8yk9nooz8 ... 0.jpg?dl=0

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Re: How To Identify a WWII MBT or Bantam 1/4 Ton Trailer

Post by Parsons GPW » Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:38 am

More photos:
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Riveted spring hanger.jpg
Riveted spring hanger.jpg (54.87 KiB) Viewed 679 times
Removed fire extinguisher bracket.jpg
Removed fire extinguisher bracket.jpg (47.79 KiB) Viewed 679 times
Post-war reflectors.jpg
Post-war reflectors.jpg (41.88 KiB) Viewed 679 times
Original OD.jpg
Original OD.jpg (66.44 KiB) Viewed 679 times
Non original lunette.jpg
Non original lunette.jpg (74.28 KiB) Viewed 679 times
Marchal Light.jpg
Marchal Light.jpg (40.11 KiB) Viewed 679 times
Lyon France light.jpg
Lyon France light.jpg (41.71 KiB) Viewed 679 times
Lunette side view.jpg
Lunette side view.jpg (68.6 KiB) Viewed 679 times
IMG_8121.jpg
IMG_8121.jpg (48.47 KiB) Viewed 679 times
Handbrake.jpg
Handbrake.jpg (48.75 KiB) Viewed 679 times
MB 346447 (06/44)
ACM II Tub 143790 (09/44)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ivzx8yk9nooz8 ... 0.jpg?dl=0

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Re: How To Identify a WWII MBT or Bantam 1/4 Ton Trailer

Post by Parsons GPW » Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:40 am

More Photos:
Attachments
USA Plug.jpg
USA Plug.jpg (60.3 KiB) Viewed 679 times
Trailer floor.jpg
Trailer floor.jpg (43.78 KiB) Viewed 679 times
Top secured leaf spring.JPG
Top secured leaf spring.JPG (51.14 KiB) Viewed 679 times
Support leg.jpg
Support leg.jpg (86.76 KiB) Viewed 679 times
Stamped number front right near handbrake.jpg
Stamped number front right near handbrake.jpg (31.88 KiB) Viewed 679 times
Spring Hanger.jpg
Spring Hanger.jpg (51.3 KiB) Viewed 679 times
Smooth axle no weld.jpg
Smooth axle no weld.jpg (52.58 KiB) Viewed 679 times
Single drain hole.jpg
Single drain hole.jpg (33.73 KiB) Viewed 679 times
Round fender.jpg
Round fender.jpg (55.39 KiB) Viewed 679 times
Rivets on spring hanger.jpg
Rivets on spring hanger.jpg (51.8 KiB) Viewed 679 times
MB 346447 (06/44)
ACM II Tub 143790 (09/44)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ivzx8yk9nooz8 ... 0.jpg?dl=0

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Re: How To Identify a WWII MBT or Bantam 1/4 Ton Trailer

Post by Parsons GPW » Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:41 am

And is it these photos that will determine if it's NOT WW2 and a post-war copy?
Attachments
Stamped number front right near handbrake.jpg
Stamped number front right near handbrake.jpg (31.88 KiB) Viewed 679 times
Welds top front.jpg
Welds top front.jpg (31.34 KiB) Viewed 679 times
No ACM visible.jpg
No ACM visible.jpg (54.84 KiB) Viewed 679 times
indents side.jpg
indents side.jpg (32.81 KiB) Viewed 679 times
Hole offset left.jpg
Hole offset left.jpg (36.57 KiB) Viewed 679 times
Domed rivet front.jpg
Domed rivet front.jpg (64.34 KiB) Viewed 679 times
Data plate position.jpg
Data plate position.jpg (75.43 KiB) Viewed 679 times
Bolt head.jpg
Bolt head.jpg (47.34 KiB) Viewed 679 times
MB 346447 (06/44)
ACM II Tub 143790 (09/44)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ivzx8yk9nooz8 ... 0.jpg?dl=0

Scrumps
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Re: How To Identify a WWII MBT or Bantam 1/4 Ton Trailer

Post by Scrumps » Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:20 am

Hi,

From my experience the ACM number is under the spring hanger. You need to unbolt and remove it ,then sand the exposed metal to find the number.

Scrumps

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Re: How To Identify a WWII MBT or Bantam 1/4 Ton Trailer

Post by Parsons GPW » Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:02 am

Hi,
Yes I did clear all the paint from under the hanger too. Hopefully you can see from the photos now added. I don't think there's an ACM number.
Image
Image
Image
Image
Attachments
Gusset4.jpg
Gusset4.jpg (80.6 KiB) Viewed 667 times
Gusset3.jpg
Gusset3.jpg (121.35 KiB) Viewed 667 times
Gusset2.jpg
Gusset2.jpg (106.47 KiB) Viewed 667 times
Gusset1.jpg
Gusset1.jpg (48.24 KiB) Viewed 667 times
MB 346447 (06/44)
ACM II Tub 143790 (09/44)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ivzx8yk9nooz8 ... 0.jpg?dl=0

Greg hanson
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Re: How To Identify a WWII MBT or Bantam 1/4 Ton Trailer

Post by Greg hanson » Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:12 pm

Not a WWII trailer, maybe a Luther Jordan.
Not the good rivet on front bar.

Hope that Chuck is in good health, no news since à Long Time.
slowness equal accuracy, accurary equal speed !!!!!!

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Re: How To Identify a WWII MBT or Bantam 1/4 Ton Trailer

Post by Jeepy78 » Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:25 am

Dear all ,
No doubt at all, it's a luther jordan from the 50's (1954 /1955)
there are several details, such as the rivet on front bar mentionned by greg, but the data plate hole position makes the difference .
Regards

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Re: How To Identify a WWII MBT or Bantam 1/4 Ton Trailer

Post by somemutt » Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:42 pm

hi all, I'm looking for suggestions for a missing data tag sn# and month of delivery for my MBT trailer.
1. no data plate
2. no reg. #
3. none
4. under spring hanger
5. acm # W12077
6. cast center axle
7. cotter pin shock
8. 8 leaf
16. welded tl bracket, no holes for bolt on.

thanks much.


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