Tarp Rope

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Re: Tarp Rope

Post by Ben Dover » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:39 am

The spec for the tarp indicates the rope to be used.
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Re: Tarp Rope

Post by Chuck Lutz » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:54 am

Remember that the Willys Drawing for the tarp does NOT indicate it be marked in any way, on either side, in any language or nothin'. Continually referring to the abstract possibility of those "infallible ORD manuals" actually indicated a seven-digit FSN number during 1944 and 1945 is an attempt to validate that "JOHNSON" as being a "WWII 1/4 ton G-529" trailer tarp. Neither the Willys nor the Bantam TM manuals use the FSN number and it only appears in the ORD manual dated 1951.....

So, it is a nice KW era tarp, but sadly, not going to count as a "correct WWII G529 Trailer Tarp" without further documentation.

I for one am not holding my breath you will find that documentation, but welcome it if you can prove it exists. After all, that's what we are here to do, validate the original WWII issued gear separate from the CJ or M38 or M100 or M416 equipment.

I wish you good luck in your search.
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Mark Tombleson
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Re: Tarp Rope

Post by Mark Tombleson » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:49 pm

Who had trailers judged at the convention this year?

Did the MBT all have 40" long rope?
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Re: Tarp Rope

Post by Chuck Lutz » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:53 pm

Mark.....Robert "signsup" took a tandem setup of trailers so maybe ask him?
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Re: Tarp Rope

Post by signsup » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:12 pm

Per an MVPA judge:
There are no MVPA judging standards for tarp rope. This judge judged trailers at York and really didn't have an opinion on if they were hemp or cotton. So, the conversation continues.

I purchased a tarp from WeeBee webbing and it has ropes included, but I haven't even opened them up yet. If they add anything to the topic, I will post the dimensions. I have a feeling they will not contribute anything positive.
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Re: Tarp Rope

Post by Chuck Lutz » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:30 am

Robert....when in doubt, go with the Willys Drawing that specifies that COTTON, two-strand rope rather than Sisal or "Manila" hemp. When I got my trailer tarp I too made up some Sisal ropes but that was before the Willys Drawing surfaced.

Tip 'o the day.....

If you do go with the Willys Drawing requirement (which never changed on the drawing) and find some cotton rope, I would STRONGLY suggest that when you tie a knot at each hook you go with a slip knot. If you've ever tried to untie a wet cotton rope you will appreciate just having to grab the overhand knot at the end and pulling on it to release the knot!
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GPW 108552 4/17/43 Louisville, KY. USA 20371278 (DOD est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3 4582 10/29/42 USA 0173499 (est.)

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Re: Tarp Rope

Post by signsup » Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:48 pm

Maybe I am reading too much into this thread, but I am getting the sense that 1/4" cotton rope is a rare item. Home Depot sells it by the 100 ft roll as clothesline. Not nylon or rubber coated, just cotton rope. Is this not the correct number of strands or something I am missing. I am leaning towards using the cotton rope (makes good headlight rim gaskets for the Model T) and researching the brass coils to whip the ends and have a nice look. I was leaning towards tying the knots under the tarp as I know how wet cotton rope is trying to undo knots.

If anyone has a lead on the brass coils, please post it here. Seems too easy that no vendor is offering the correct set of ropes already to go. The last set of ropes I purchased was hemp or sisel as the loose strands would almost pierce your sking. I soaked the whole mess in linseed oil to get them softer but ended up selling the trailer and tarp before I had too much experience with them.
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Re: Tarp Rope

Post by Mark Tombleson » Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:57 pm

Robert, the 3/8” cotton rope is shown in the Willys - Overland drawing in a post by me on page two of this thread. All the ropes for the MBT are 40” as the drawing shows.
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Re: Tarp Rope

Post by signsup » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:12 pm

For what it's worth, my ropes from WeeBee webbing that came with their tarp are 6x28" and 4x40". Mnilla rope with brass crimped around the diameter of the rope near the end to prevent unraveling.

Appears to be very rough manilla rope. I'll look for some 3/8" cotton rope and new crimps.

The tiying method I was envisioning will not work and two strands of this rope will not fit through the gromets, so one strand through and the around the tie down and then tied. Two hooks by the fenders are closer to the tub top then other, so two ropes look very long after tieing and they are only 28" long. A 40" will look odd, IMO.

And, I'm not sure how to tie and wrap the corners as well as the location of each knot. Is there a good photo we can get a consensus on that shows the proper technique for tieing the ropes? Or, is that another WWIII?
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Re: Tarp Rope

Post by Chuck Lutz » Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:48 pm

Robert:

Let's start over here and use Mark's Willys Tarp Drawing as the only "tool" we have that is WWII dated to serve as our source of information, OK?

1) Two-strand, COTTON rope, TEN are needed that are ALL to be 40" x 3/8" prior to an overhand knot at each end.
2) The drawing calls for "RING FASTENERS" to be used on the ends but it does not list the type of metal to be used, let alone BRASS by any means!
3) The TARP has FOURTEEN grommets (holes) for the ropes, and each corner rope is threaded through TWO grommets prior to tying it to the tarp hook.
4) The drawing also indicates the knot is to be on the UNDERSIDE (which means you tie an overhand knot in one end (after rings are installed and ropes cut) and thread it up through the tarp, the other overhand knot is tied and then down to secure it to the hook. However in the pic below it looks like the side rope knots are on TOP and the corner rope knots are on the bottom....go figure!
5) At the corners, the rope has to pass through TWO grommets before the second knot is tied.
6) Installed in this manner, the corner ropes are loosened but are never removed from any grommet, nor are the side ropes for that matter.
7) There is no mention of what knot is to be used to tie the tarp to the hooks, but a slip knot would be my choice as it would come loose even when wet.


In the pic below, it appears the corner knot is on the front grommet and then goes through the side grommet.

By the way, I checked out some original WWII put tent ropes and while they are cotton and they are two-strand, they seem to be 1/4" in diameter. I wonder if anyone had any WWII tentage that used a 3/8" cotton, two-strand rope that could be used on your trailer top?

Note that all TEN ropes are the SAME LENGTH, the difference being a big loop on the sides/front/rear and virtually none on the corner ropes.
Bantam T3 WWII.jpg
Bantam T3 WWII.jpg (44.14 KiB) Viewed 60 times
Chuck Lutz

GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
GPW 108552 4/17/43 Louisville, KY. USA 20371278 (DOD est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3 4582 10/29/42 USA 0173499 (est.)

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Re: Tarp Rope

Post by 42swing » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:17 am

Another discussion on tarp ropes has been running parallel to this one with a lot of the same information. I looked at all the MBT-oid trailers at York and if they had tarps, virtually all were the sisal and brass clinch fitting variety tied most any way.

My old sisal ropes eventually started to fray and needed replacement. Based on the discussion on the other thread, I made a new set for my MBT using 3/8 cotton rope from the Knot & Rope Supply, all cut to 40" with a hog-ring applied about 1/2 " from each end and a knot about an inch from one end in compliance with the Willys blueprint. The blueprint specifies copper naphthalene to treat the ropes which generates a pretty disgusting looking greenish color. I experimented with various treatments and settled on treatment with tea - cheap, and generates a nice somewhat streaky tan color that to my eye looks about right and smells a lot better. The materials are cheap and the process to make them is quick. The tea soaking process takes a couple days.

The grommets on the tarp are just large enough to take the 3/8 ropes, I positioned the knots under the tarp with a single hitch, then double up the tail on the side ties with a loose knot to keep them from banging. The corners feed the rope through the front/back grommet and back through the side grommet over the hook folding the tarp canvas along the side then tied off. Makes for a neat appearance and seems pretty intuitive.

Looking at as many wartime pictures as I could stand, there's little evidence of any standardization on tying. As Chuck pointed out on the other thread, the tarps are designed to cover loads above the sides of the trailer, hence the need for the longer length, which is visible in the wartime pictures.
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