Armored vehicle markings when changing units - assignments out of the armored divisions

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DDTrustee
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Armored vehicle markings when changing units - assignments out of the armored divisions

Post by DDTrustee » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:34 pm

A. If an Armor Battalion was assigned to the 101st Airborne Division what would be the Command symbol on the hull? E.g. normally a tank or tank destroyer would have the armored ‘triangle’ and the number….. Would it change if the assignment was from an Armor Division or would the earlier Armor Division symbol stay?
Example:
1. If the 833TD Battalion was in the 11th Armored Division it would have the 11th Armored Division triangle on the hull

2. If it transferred to the 101st airborne Div. while in the 11th Armored Div. would the triangle symbol change? Be removed? Would the 101st AB Div. symbol be painted where the triangle symbol was?

B. If an armored unit was assigned to Combat Command B (CCB) would the CCB symbol (or something designating CCB) appear in place of the triangle?
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Re: Armored vehicle markings when changing units - assignments out of the armored divisions

Post by lehotskyt » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:24 pm

For World War II:
A. Independent Armored Battalions were not assigned to Infantry Divisions. They were temporarily (for varying lengths) attached to Infantry units, as opposed to units who received permanent attachment status such as the 501st/506th. This means that while they were serving under the Infantry Division/Regiment/Battalion's command, any and all vehicles would remain marked to the Armored Battalion as the vehicles remained their parent organization's property. In the Armored Division, the units would be marked for the Division/Battalion and attached as mission dictated. The modern difference would be "assigned vs OPCON'd).

So for your examples:
1) 833TD BN was not active in WW2, let alone attached to the 11th AD [https://web.archive.org/web/20201107003 ... AD-ETO.htm] but for TD Battalions, it appears that the Battalions retained independent markings (utilizing their Army as the parent organization rather than the Division) through the end of the war with minor variations depending on which TD Battalion it is.

2. The markings would not change.

B. For the Combat Commands, markings would not be applied as the Task Organization of the Commands changed frequently and units were moved between them quite often. The vehicle would retain DIV/BN markings.

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Re: Armored vehicle markings when changing units - assignments out of the armored divisions

Post by DDTrustee » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:57 pm

The 833rd I used was a phony/made-up example -just to ask the question!!!! No intended to even imply there was a 833rd TD
I'm actually remarking my M18 to the go back to the original markings: 705th TD (company B) which was part of the 5th Armored Division in England and where Company B fought with the 101st regiments; (one M18 going to the 501st Parachute Infantry, two going to the 506th Parachute Infantry, two going to the 502nd Parachute Infantry and four to the 327th Glider Infantry in Bastogne during the Battle of the Bulge. The battalion was (1945) transferred to the 11th Armored Division from the 5th. They had various attachments from June, 1944 through spring of 1945 and that is why I asked the questions!!!!!
I mistakenly used the wrong vehicle serial number in the registration number sequence and am remarking the hull ending in -899 which is correct for Hellcat serial no. 2023. When I ordered the paint masks from Larsen I reversed the last two serial number digits and came up with ---908 for serial no. 2032 - WRONG! My memory on the phone call to Larsen I as trying to recall the serial no. from memory and came up with serial no. 2032, when in fact it was 2023.
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Re: Armored vehicle markings when changing units - assignments out of the armored divisions

Post by The Fireman » Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:09 pm

To all,

Many years ago, I restored a 42 Chevy 1 1/2 ton. I put the 3 rd Armoured, 32nd Armored, I company markings on the vehicle. My wife's uncle, Bert Close was a tanker with that outfit. He was a replacement bow gunner/assistant driver for Sgt. Pool in a Sherman with a 76 named "In The Mood". When he came down from Portland, OR to visit on his way to the Bay Area to see his sister, I showed him the Chevy I had done. The first thing he said was it looks nice, the second thing he said was " We never had unit markings on our tank as we didn't want the jerry's to know which unit we were with. " The only markings on the outside of the tank, was the name "In The Mood".

He served with Pool until the "In The Mood" tank got knocked out, then was sent to be a replacement crew member in other Sherman's. After the fourth Sherman he was assigned to was knocked out, he was sent to a hospital/rest area with what is now known at PTSD.

If you wish to do some research for Sgt. Lafayette Pool.

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Re: Armored vehicle markings when changing units - assignments out of the armored divisions

Post by Railsplitter » Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:59 pm

All,
Point well made in the last post; up in the front lines of the battle, the unit designations (left side) were removed before going into combat to keep the enemy from which unit they were fighting. The vehicle admin number on the right side may have been retained for use during a unit movement. These bumper markings were done with gasoline soluble paint and were easy to remove. Some combat units were attached to another unit (task force) and detached when no longer needed. Many WWII histories list “Attachments” and “Detachments” and the time period they were in effect. No change in vehicle marking were necessary.
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Re: Armored vehicle markings when changing units - assignments out of the armored divisions

Post by The Fireman » Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:37 am

To all,

If you haven't read the book "Spearhead" by Adam Makos, I would highly recommend it. From my previous conversations with Bert Close, I think Makos did a very good job of describing life in a "Tank".

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Re: Armored vehicle markings when changing units - assignments out of the armored divisions

Post by DDTrustee » Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:17 am

My interest in marking for the 705th is their Battle of the Bulge exploits....unlikely to have been any warmer in the M18 than troops on the ground...maybe colder since you couldn't stand next to fire in the hull and engine air is drawn in from inside the hull meaning cold air is sucked in through the open turret into the fighting compartment.
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Re: Armored vehicle markings when changing units - assignments out of the armored divisions

Post by Falldownjaeger » Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:35 pm

Post WWII, into the 90s, the 82nd Airborne Division had Airborne Tankers, 4th Bn 68th Armored Regiment, first with M551 Sheridans then M1 Abrams Tanks, until finally replacing them in the TO&E with LAV-25s, with plan to pull tanks from 24th ID at Ft Stewart if needed.
1995 M1025A2 Orig 5SFG GMV ODA525 "Hammerhead"
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