Tub too tired

Create a thread to track the progress of you MB/GPW restoration progress. Previously a General Discussion board.
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aikmanmosquito
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Tub too tired

Post by aikmanmosquito » Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:09 am

My jeep is at a well known Jeep specialist being restored, just had an initial report on Jeeps condition and have had a suspected Engine crack confirmed, as well as possibly tub too far gone to repair. Now my questions are, is cracking in these engines a rare event? and is it usual just to replace the block? and with regards the tub, the garage mentioned removing my tubs mounts with the body number and welding them onto a better original tub, is this also common practice or do you try to repair your tubs no matter just how rotten they are? I know proper originality is hard to achieve after all these years!


Av8er
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Re: Tub too tired

Post by Av8er » Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:46 pm

aikmanmosquito wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:09 am
My jeep is at a well known Jeep specialist being restored, just had an initial report on Jeeps condition and have had a suspected Engine crack confirmed, as well as possibly tub too far gone to repair. Now my questions are, is cracking in these engines a rare event? and is it usual just to replace the block? and with regards the tub, the garage mentioned removing my tubs mounts with the body number and welding them onto a better original tub, is this also common practice or do you try to repair your tubs no matter just how rotten they are? I know proper originality is hard to achieve after all these years!
In regards to a crack in the engine, and assuming you mean the block, that is a common problem in GPW blocks. There are different methods to make repairs depending on the severity. When I had my GPW engine rebuilt they identified a hairline crack in the sidewall that I already suspected was there. The rebuilder repaired it with a JB Weld type epoxy which held for several years but eventually failed and started leaking again. I repaired it by grinding a V cut into the crack and repairing it with Belzona epoxy which is used to repair Caterpillar engines. The Belzona is very expensive but worked perfectly with the block in like new condition. Cracks in the head or around the cylinders are a whole different animal.

Tub repairs are a trade off of cost effectiveness and the desire to have an ‘original’ tub. With quality panels available from the likes of Joe’s Motorpool, effective repairs can be made to restore tubs that are in very poor condition. It is more a matter of how much you are willing to spend and how many repairs are required. My GPW tub required replacement of the rear floor and rear panel as well as extensive repairs to the front floor and drivers side panel that commonly rusts through behind the support brace, as well as replacing the gas tank well. The cost including epoxy priming and paint ran around $6000 and that was five years ago.

Here is a link to the restoration work that was done on my GPW tub to use as a reference:

viewtopic.php?f=144&t=284187&p=1648839#p1648839
1943 Ford GPW #113639 USA-20385133
1943 RIA M3A4 Hand Cart

aikmanmosquito
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Re: Tub too tired

Post by aikmanmosquito » Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:22 am

Thank you for your reply. My Jeep is an MB, I suspected there was a crack in the block from not long after buying it, It was a basket case, although the chassis is surprisingly good, the tub does need work. I was told by the company doing the restoration that when they drained the oil it was full of antifreeze, suggesting a rather significant crack within the engine!
My tub, if I could post pictures on here I'd appreciate your opinion on it. It requires rear floor, rear panel, inside the tool boxes needs replaced, plus repairs to the usual side panel, front floor and hat channels. I suspect the company doing the restoration feel it's too much time for them to spend and are suggesting a new tub, which I don't want. I am a mechanic and know as soon as you start cutting old metal out of a badly rusted tub or shell then originality goes, but I'd still prefer this route than repro tub. Looking at your pictures my tub isn't much different to yours.

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twinflyer17
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Re: Tub too tired

Post by twinflyer17 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:59 am

aikmanmosquito wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:22 am
I was told by the company doing the restoration that when they drained the oil it was full of antifreeze, suggesting a rather significant crack within the engine!
Get more info on the crack(s) before being too concerned. I have a GPW block with a crack above the distro, which is common for those. After fixing, with the lock-n-stitch method/kit, I pressure tested the water jacket and discovered another crack in the distro well. I'm sure that would have ultimately leaked into the oil if I didn't identify it, and I was able to fix it using Permatex coated copper tubing. As long as your block isn't seized, I'm sure it's repairable and might not be as bad as you initially think.

Regarding your tub, definitely post pictures if you can. From your description, it certainly sounds repairable, too. Now, if you're paying someone to do the work, they might be pushing you towards a repro tub solely from the fact that it might not be justifiable to pay their shop rates for the time it takes to repair the original...doesn't mean it's not fixable, though!
Sean

GPW 108175 viewtopic.php?t=267732
DOD 4/14/43 Louisville, KY USA20371070

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horrocks
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Re: Tub too tired

Post by horrocks » Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:42 am

Tub repair is very time consuming, and thus expensive if you contract commercial companies to do it. You will be looking at several thousand pounds. However, as a welding job it is pretty straightforward, and the rot follows a pattern that is common to all Jeeps. JMP do all of the parts you are likely to require. I taught myself to weld, and am on my second Jeep tub.

The engine block should be stripped, cleaned up and pressure tested. Cracks in the distributor channel can be repaired with an inserted sleeve, and cracks in the water jacket can now be repaired by laser welding them. There is a firm down on the south coast that specialises in this techninque, which does not entail pre-heating the block, or conventional stitching. It is apparently very effective.
Toby

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Re: Tub too tired

Post by '42 Peep's Motorpool » Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:33 pm

Toby is on the mark!

Tubs are labor intensive, and that may be what they meant. I've seen some pretty bad ones rebuilt, but of course it took those people a lot of time, effort, and much new metal to get where they were when they finished. For them it was a labor of love, but paying shop rates would have made it an expensive endeavor.

He also has a great point about the repair panels, perhaps the shop wasn't aware of the pre-made panels and based their opinion on their having to make new panels from scratch? Something to ask I guess. If all they have to do is remove the bad metal and add in new panels it's still work, but one less step than having to make the panels themselves.


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