Rebuild of GPW 238336

G503 General Discussion and Chat Board where users can discuss any topic about their jeeps. Jeep Use both On and Off Road, Handy & Safety Tips. Topics that don't belong on the Technical Boards, such as personal restoration progress etc. It functions as a Clubhouse.
Post Reply
Fabrizio
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
Posts: 1357
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:14 pm
Location: Chartres, FR

Rebuild of GPW 238336

Post by Fabrizio » Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:48 pm

Hi everyone,

So..how do I begin…I'm 25, from France ( sorry for my english!), currently restoring a few classics ( '73 fiat 500, '79 Alfa 2000 spider Kamm tail, '74 fiat 124 spider, etc..) and just brought home a gpw, that will go through total reconstruction, trying to have it done just in time to be part of the 70 years commemoration of the d-day ( Normandy is 200km from my home, and by the way I live just a few minutes away from the place where Patton spent the night while going to Paris, the D910 road, know here as "route de la libération" ).

So, what I wanted was a decent base, no french Hotchkiss of course, no brand new car ( where would be the fun?), and the fewer modifications possible.

So, what I found: here she is!
Image
Image

As anyone can see, a lot of work needed, but looks "unrestaured and unmodified" to me.
Sadly lacks all lights and dashboard instruments, radiator, wipers, windshields and inner windshield frame, and almost all little equipment, ignition etc.
But has 2 F stamped front seats, back seat with no stamping found yet, 3 combat rims + 1 solid, most likely WOF, sandblasted fuel tank, a lawson 20- 5 1/4 (?)-44gas jerrican, and some other small parts.


Now, the numbers & facts (here comes the mess):

Frame is GPW #238335, square front member, square MG mount, F stamps on the front bumber gussets, which dates it around december 1944

Body is stamped #165234 on the drivers side gusset and seems to be a correct matching ACM type (round lock button depressions, 3 holes front triangular gussets, plain flat covers but not attached so very likely from another tub) Left lower fender mounting 1 hole, right one 2 holes so….still can't name it ford or willys assembled tub...

Engine is an MB #317710, would be march 1944, of course not running but cranks and block looks ok.
If anyone can add informations, here are the casting numbers on the block: 10-18 638632 W1 A NI CR N2
Head is willys too, will post pics later.

Last but not least: she has 3 of the 4 original data plates still on it, and a matching french road registration ( #400698, dod 12-27-44 )

Here's a pic after a quick cleaning:

Image

PS: is that grey paint a factory primer? the willys plate has very unlikely been re-attached, and the one on his left just came off, showing that grey?

And, last one; the car has only been resprayed once (yellow) but the paint comes off quite easily, and then, surprise…

Image

I will of course keep peeling it off, I hope I'll find the side numbers on the hood!


That's all I can say for today, I will be searching tomorrow for more markings (axles, trans etc…) to see if I can figure out whether it's a MB-engined GPW, or a "GPW-framed" MB!

Any comments welcome :)
Last edited by Fabrizio on Wed May 13, 2015 3:56 pm, edited 5 times in total.
GPW #238336
GPW #3606
"Jeep is America's only real sports car." - Enzo Ferrari

User avatar
The Raven
G-Lieutenant Colonel
G-Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 1167
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:00 am
Location: Norumbega...look it up :)

Re: New user, new gpw, and new restoration coming!

Post by The Raven » Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:25 pm

Welcome. Bonjour, your jeep is great and will be a great project......but no sense in rushing...enjoy the experience!!
The Law of Unintended Consequences has come into play. All the best..-A

User avatar
wo2jeeper
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
Posts: 1771
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:47 pm

Re: New user, new gpw, and new restoration coming!

Post by wo2jeeper » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:29 pm

Fabrizio wrote:
Engine is an MB #317710, would be march 1944, of course not running but cranks and block looks ok.
If anyone can add informations, here are the casting numbers on the block: 10-18 638632 W1 A NI CR N2
Head is willys too, will post pics later.
The engine is casted on 18 october 1943 that is the date and not march 44. Nice find, hope to see you en Normandie next year.

Cordialement.

Fabrizio
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
Posts: 1357
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:14 pm
Location: Chartres, FR

Re: New user, new gpw, and new restoration coming!

Post by Fabrizio » Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:16 am

Yes, sorry for my mistake, march '44 was for a MB plate serial, not for the engine number, I forgot they didn't match as on GPW's.

I'm searching and learning everything on mb, slats, gpw, early, mid, late-war, acm, and all the stuff since I bought it, it's sometimes confusing!

Anyway, I'm scratching the yellow paint on the hood, I'll post pictures when finished, but I can already say I've found veeery nice things !
GPW #238336
GPW #3606
"Jeep is America's only real sports car." - Enzo Ferrari

Tom Wolboldt
G-General
G-General
Posts: 8361
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:36 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: New user, new gpw, and new restoration coming!

Post by Tom Wolboldt » Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:36 am

The USA marking on the hood was not factory applied so it may be the original number repainted or it could be some other number all together. There should be ( if it was not removed ) a number in blue drab with a solid font on the base OD coat of paint.

Also the body is from the same time period as the frame,
Tom
"GPW Whisperer"
http://www.theGPWstory.com
http://www.theWillysMBstory.com
CHECK OUT NEWEST PROJECT - https://www.gofundme.com/gwcs6xne
Got MVPA ? If not why not


Fabrizio
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
Posts: 1357
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:14 pm
Location: Chartres, FR

Re: New user, new gpw, and new restoration coming!

Post by Fabrizio » Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:57 am

Hi,

I Finally think my car is a GPW-framed MB.

The only 3 F stamped parts are the frame and the two seats, engine is MB, trans looks all MB too. But body looks like an ACM2, so can't really say.
Hood numbers are also all white, so MB again.

On the hood I found these layers:

-Bare metal
-Red primer
-dark and resistant OD
-One really nice star, solid circle, very clean paint
- two clean "USA" (plain letters) and two hood numbers with clean pattern and paint, look identical to the stars paint; numbers are 2019666 - I think this 5 digit number matches to a really early non-slat MB
-All over that, a thin layer of a lighter OD
-And two bigger "USA"(one very very faded, split letters), very light remains of another star of different size over the older one, and new numbers painted over ther older ones: 20504038.
All these markings are made of a thinner, lighter and "cheaper" white paint, and numbers are bigger and with mixed fonts.

Finally, the all thing was covered with al least 3 layers of green, yellow, and yellow again.


I think this might be an older hood, taken from car 2019666, then put onto car 20504038 , that had then the corresponding numbers resprayed on field, with random stencils and paint.


Is #20504038 possibly matching any of my other serials?

I've got:
engine #MB317710
body ACM2 (I think) #165234
data plate willys #400698, dod 12-27-44
and frame #GPW238335

Numbers specialists welcome..
Last edited by Fabrizio on Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
GPW #238336
GPW #3606
"Jeep is America's only real sports car." - Enzo Ferrari

Fabrizio
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
Posts: 1357
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:14 pm
Location: Chartres, FR

Re: New user, new gpw, and new restoration coming!

Post by Fabrizio » Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:08 am

Here are the pictures (notice my toolbox!!)

Image
Image
Image


Also on the instrument panel: same dark OD over red primer, this time with no second layer of the brighter OD, and again the various yellow layers.

Plus a nice shipping plate, seems to be still on its factory's screws.

Image
GPW #238336
GPW #3606
"Jeep is America's only real sports car." - Enzo Ferrari

User avatar
Jeeps4Brains
G-Major
G-Major
Posts: 986
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 9:56 am
Location: Upstate SC

Re: New user, new restoration! UPDATE: hood numbers found

Post by Jeeps4Brains » Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:11 am

I like the two styles of numbers. I think I like the bigger numbers myself. You are lucky, on my MB someone took the time to strip my MB hood down to metal and repaint it. No numbers. :(

Alan
45' MB, ??' MBT, 47' CJ2A, 48' CJ2A,
51' M38 #1, 51' M38 #2, 51' M100,
52' M37, ??' M101A1 (1st Gulf War Vet),
53' M38A1, 53' M211, 65' M151A1, 67' M416,
MVPA #31724

sjalbert
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
Posts: 1482
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:28 pm
Location: Bellaire, TX

Re: New user, new gpw, and new restoration coming!

Post by sjalbert » Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:38 am

Fabrizio wrote:Hi,
Is #20504038 possibly matching any of my other serials?

I've got:
engine #MB317710
body ACM2 (I think) #165234
data plate willys #400698, dod 12-27-44
and frame #GPW238335

Numbers specialists welcome..
I don't have GPW data so I can't date the frame or tell if the hood number matches the frame. If it's a Willys hood number it's from June '44

I concur that the engine is from Oct 1943. When you take the oil pan off I'd love to know the machining date that's stamped by the rear journal bearing. My guess is that it's 10 21 43

The tub number falls into the range of Dec 1944 ACM2 tubs, so the data plate is probably original to the body.
Seth
******
1944 MB 349858, 20620361
1942 MBT 10968 viewtopic.php?f=18&t=149552" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
1942 MBT 15799, USA 0217497
MVPA # 8587

Collecting Willys Engine Info. Please send me Engine #, Casting Date & Machining Date if known

Fabrizio
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
Posts: 1357
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:14 pm
Location: Chartres, FR

Re: New user, new restoration! UPDATE: hood numbers found

Post by Fabrizio » Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:29 am

Thanks everyone for the informations!


I kept working and hunting numbers.

New things that appeared are:

-Late type (december 44 / jan 45) steel pressed smooth pedals, that match my tub & dataplate.

-Shipping plate (looks still factory mounted) on the tub seems to have the ford edges style ( thank you Tom Wolboldt )

-Finally found casted numbers on the axles, rear is GP4025, front is GP3076 or GP3075, still too much paint to read id correctly while standing head down onto the engine bay :p
So obviously Ford axles, that's not an easy puzzle!

-Unbolted the head, head gasket seems to be the original one, stamped VICTOR989K.
I've seen people on g503 discussing the way it should be mounted, mine had victor stamping facing the block, and the large metal reinforcement between the cylinders downwards aswell.

Head came off surprisingly really easily, zero hammer/srewdriver/lever needed. Cylinders surfaces, pistons and valves have also a surprisingly good look, for a 69-and-three-quarters-yo engine.
Bore quickly measured is around 79,3 mm, aprox. 3,122in, so possibly still std bore.

Head castings seem to match the blocks numbers too, with WILLYS, the firing order, but no "Jeep". Also a W2.

I think I'll go for block and head gasket surfacing, and a +0,010"reboring, still have to check crank and camshaft housings of course, when engine will be removed from the frame.

Here are some pictures:

Image
Image
Image

So far it is a december '44 GPW frame, on Ford axles, with ford seats, with an october 43 MB engine, ACM2 body around december 44 too with ford style shipping plate, MB data plates december 44 too, 2 hood numbers set: one very early, one later "field painted" in the field of a mid-summer '44 MB, december 44/ jan 45 or later steel pedals…
Last edited by Fabrizio on Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
GPW #238336
GPW #3606
"Jeep is America's only real sports car." - Enzo Ferrari

User avatar
acespast
Sergeant Major of the Gee
Sergeant Major of the Gee
Posts: 476
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:38 am
Location: Hagley,England

Re: New user, new restoration! UPDATE: hood numbers found

Post by acespast » Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:32 am

good find,enjoyed reading and the pictures of the jeep
1942 Willys Script

User avatar
jeepfinger
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
Posts: 1399
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:54 pm
Location: Bronte Country West Yorkshire England.

Re: New user, new restoration! UPDATE: hood numbers found

Post by jeepfinger » Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:47 pm

Hello Fabrizio,
Welcome to the Gee, and crongrulations on your new Ford GPW. I say that because thats what I think your jeep is. The things that you have listed all point to it being a GPW, not a Willys MB. It has a Ford GPW frame, to me that is the answer, it has an Willys engine, but engines can be changed. When I bought my GPW, it had a Willys engine in it, I have changed it for a GPW one but not a matching one. The Willys data plate is on a glove box door that also could be changed. I noticed that it had been rivited on, as far as I know Fords where rivited and Willys screwed on, the shipping plate like you mention is of the Ford style. As far as I know, but could be wrong, the flat pedals where a Willys thing and Ford still used the round ones. I noticed in a photo of the engine that you look to have a unusual thermostat housing, it looks to have an extra piece with some sort of plug, never seen one before :?
After saying all that, enjoy your project and keep us all posted with the progress on your GPW.
Regards,
Dave
PS, Like your mile marker :)
Dave Boocock
GPW 41158 June 19 1942
Bantam T3 9555 1/11/1943 USA 0258448
BSA WDM20 Sept 1940 C4343114

Fabrizio
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
Posts: 1357
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:14 pm
Location: Chartres, FR

Re: New user, new restoration! UPDATE: hood numbers found

Post by Fabrizio » Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:30 am

Hi jeepfinger,

I'm thinking more and more that it's a GPW, the GP marked axles helped a lot, now I've got to check the gearbox and transfer case housings to see if they are ford too.
I read that late-war factory hood reg numbers became white on GPWs, has someone got a date for this change?

Anyway, that's a really funny search…..the advert said willys MB, when I saw it I thought it was a GPW, then I started to strip it and it became a MB, found out about the axles ans shipping plate and it became a GPW again..


PS: the mile marker was at the previous ower's house, where I took the first pictures, but…..the road from where it came off is only half a mile of my house, the "zero" milestone of the "liberation road" too ;)
GPW #238336
GPW #3606
"Jeep is America's only real sports car." - Enzo Ferrari

Fabrizio
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
Posts: 1357
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:14 pm
Location: Chartres, FR

Re: New user, new restoration! UPDATE: hood numbers found

Post by Fabrizio » Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:10 am

Also, you had a good guess about the thermostat housing. Surely not a MB or GPW style, so I cleaned it.

Casted part number I found is JWC 7335. Googled it, and found here on the gee ( viewtopic.php?f=4&t=180560 ) that this part comes from a jeep engine powered generator.

If anyone's interested, will be for sale as I'll switch for a conventionnal one.

Nice find cleaning it, a sexy F marked bolt!

Image
Image
Image



I also checked the serial plate, riveted ford style as you noticed, mysterious because rivet fitting looks old and clean. OD painted on their back. Strange.

Image

Checked the left plate I got with the car too, rivets have been grinded and it was not attached.
The plate has no black left on it BUT you can still see the clear edges around, so I guess ford GPW style.
Important fact, bubba painted it yellow, same as my hood, fenders and dashboard, so might be original to the car, at least to its body.
Plate material is steel, according to its back it was plated with something golden.
Normal fitting for a late 44 would be all 3 plates made of aluminium, but found here http://rdrnl.home.xs4all.nl/4UWPFordGPW.html that a steel/alu/alu combination existed in 44.

Image
Image




So, i guess that my MB serial plate is not original to the car even if matching both year and month, but the left plate could, and certainly is.

So I think we can now say that it is a GPW, with very likely original acm2 ford fitted tub.
GPW #238336
GPW #3606
"Jeep is America's only real sports car." - Enzo Ferrari

Fabrizio
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
Posts: 1357
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:14 pm
Location: Chartres, FR

Re: Rebuild of GPW 238335

Post by Fabrizio » Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:52 am

Hey there!

Worked a lot to dismantle the GPW, and gather informations.

Disassembly:
Image
There goes the engine
Image
Naked frame
Image


The tub:
I knew it was a ACM2, but having seen the shipping plate, the metal "throttle" knob, and the short Ford style firewall insulator, and the december 44 serial, I think I can say that the tub is almost certainly the original Ford-fitted acm2.
It is not that chewed and pretty straight except for the rear right corner, but has a lot of rust and bubba holes over it, plus gearbox floor cutted. But it's original to the car and has made it through 69 years of hard life so I guess it has well deserved a little ( well, big) effort to make it last another 69 years.
I considered the repop that would save me a lot of time and effort but… I think that would be a certain loss, so let's go for a hard rebuild!
I think I'll replace rear panel, footrests, and complete front floor; other sections are salvageable.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Hood:
As shown on another thread, looks like I have a dec 43 hood, so not original to the car, but Ford Hood and F marked hinge.

Fenders:
I think passenger one is Ford, and driver's one is MB? Judging by the inner panel, one part construction vs 2 or 3 parts.

Left one
Image
Right side
Image

The frame:
Front horns aren't that bad, only one bumber gusset cracked, zero repairs.
Rear cross member is badly bent, drilled and cracked, will be replaced.
The big issue is the left rail under the fuel tank (classic weak point I guess): completely rotten, and lightly bent.
Rear horns and springs attachments have been repaired several times, they need to be completely rebuilt.
I think I'll go for the full rebuild: disassembly, re-welding and straightening where needed, then re-riveting with the custom tool as described here on the G. Not the easy way, but the clean way, so in my opinion the only way.

Image
Image
Image
Image

Transmission:

I think my trans and T-case are from a late war Willys, can someone confirm?
T case tag:
Image
Trans ( H model )
Image

Nice surprise wheen looking at the starter:
Image
GPW #238336
GPW #3606
"Jeep is America's only real sports car." - Enzo Ferrari

Post Reply

Return to “G503 General Discussion Board”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests