Anyone adding 2 cycle oil with TCW3 spec. to their gas ??

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Anyone adding 2 cycle oil with TCW3 spec. to their gas ?? Or other additives

Post by YLG80 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:57 am

artificer wrote
Aviation fuel, kerosene, diesel & home heating oil are ALL middle order distillates, are they not?
You are right:
From the heavier to the lighter : asphalt base, industrial oil, home heating oil, diesel fuel, jet/aviation fuel, gasoline, LPG.

That's the reason why I'm interested in the TCW3 oil or Lucas additive. (Lucas products have a very good reputation)
They both contains a distillates with lower volatility, i.e. the aviation fuel.

I'm not a specialist in petroleum products and that is the reason of my question regarding you experience with additives or 2 stroke oil.
To me that's logical to add a less volatile distillate (jet fuel) so that the product/oil will not be completely burned in the engine.
That will contribute to the lubrication and to the surface protection against corrosion in the top cylinder and valves areas.

@ Chuck
Yes the ethanol (alcohol) is highly hygroscopic.
When the ethanol/fuel mixed is saturated with water (above 0.6%), the water settles into the bottom of the tank or wherever the is fuel in the fuel system (fuel pump, carb bowl...).
The temperature is a critical factor.
The scenario is the following:
You fill up the car or gas can with fuel with ethanol that, for different reasons, is near its water-saturation point and at 15°C/60°F.
Overnight, the temperature drops by only 7°C/20°F, and all the water and alcohol settle out everywhere in the fuel system .
Guess what? The engine won't run very well when the fuel pickup is sucking up the alcohol–water mix.

Guess what? If you don't use your engine during a while. It will be corroded from the inside like a cancer.
To resolve that last issue, I would run the car with ethanol free fuel prior to store it in the garage during the winter season.

And that's not finished with the alcohol nightmare:
Alcohol is corrosive and can degrade plastic, rubber or even metal parts in the fuel system that weren't engineered to use alcohol-bearing fuel.
Alcohol will also scour varnish and deposits out of the fuel system that have remained in place for years, which will eventually wind up in the filter or main jet, choking off the engine's fuel supply.
Worse yet, the alcohol itself ­oxidizes in the tank and will gum up the fuel system.

That's what happened to my old tiller engine earlier this year.
I had to completely cleanup the rusted fuel tank and coat the tank wit a special Restom 2 components epoxy.
I had also to clean up the carburetor from the heavy brown gum deposits.
I've also seen that the inside of fuel bowl was starting to be corroded (white corrosion inside)
Hopefully there was no plastic or rubber in the fuel line.

Also I've found an interesting study made in Portugal regarding cork gaskets in contact with ethanol fuel.
What will happen with that cork becoming black where in contact with the fuel+ethanol?
fuel-with-ethanol_contact-zone-black.jpg
fuel-with-ethanol_contact-zone-black.jpg (45.35 KiB) Viewed 127 times
Other engine parts "horror pictures" with ethanol
Carb float gummed up:
fuel_carburetor-float_frozen_by_gum_with ethanol.jpg
fuel_carburetor-float_frozen_by_gum_with ethanol.jpg (58.3 KiB) Viewed 127 times
White corrosion
ethanol_white-corrosion.jpg
ethanol_white-corrosion.jpg (41.32 KiB) Viewed 127 times
Cylinder wall corroded
cylinder-top-corrosion-with ethanol.jpg
cylinder-top-corrosion-with ethanol.jpg (66.68 KiB) Viewed 127 times
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Re: Anyone adding 2 cycle oil with TCW3 spec. to their gas ??

Post by YLG80 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:13 am

Other information:
distillates.jpg
distillates.jpg (225.11 KiB) Viewed 117 times
The above diagram explains why putting diesel rather than kerosene in your gas would generate much more carbon deposits and smokes.
Diesel needs a much higher temperature to be burned.
It's much better to use home heater kerosene as an additive because the boiling temperature is closer to the gas boiling T°.

That's likely the reason why they are using aviation fuel in the Lucas additives and in the TC-W3 marine oil :wink: .
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Re: Anyone adding 2 cycle oil with TCW3 spec. to their gas ??

Post by Wolfman » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:18 am

Interesting diagram of the process to break down crude oil. I knew the basics.
One more form of corrosion I have run across with E-10. First start up, after a long storage period, the engine would start, run a very short time and die. Would not restart.
Open the carb to find what looked like mush. Dump this out and let it dry and it would shrink down to what looked like small, hard pieces of crumbled up Granola. Put fresh fuel on it and it swelled back up to the spongy mush.
No idea what this is but clean it out and the engine would start and run normally.
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Re: Anyone adding 2 cycle oil with TCW3 spec. to their gas ??

Post by YLG80 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:48 am

Likely similar this which is also similar to what I've found in one of my machines
Dirty_carb_ethanol_varnish_gum.jpg
Dirty_carb_ethanol_varnish_gum.jpg (79.71 KiB) Viewed 107 times
When I discuss that issue with a mechanic in a machine repair shop, he does not really give me any solution.
When I tell him I'm going to use the fuel until the machine dies, he said "don't do that", you will have problems with the fuel pump membrane getting dry!

So I guess the best solution would be to use 98 octane ethanol-free during the last machine use.
The additives like the TCW3 oil or Lucas additive or whatever will not resolve that specific issue.

Please note that if that strange crumble/varnish/gum becomes dry it can become almost impossible to disassemble the carb with the nuts going to break.
This varnish tends to harden in the threads :o !
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Re: Anyone adding 2 cycle oil with TCW3 spec. to their gas ??

Post by Ben Dover » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:58 am

I use 90 Octane Ethanol free gasoline along with LUCAS Fuel Conditioner in my MB, M-37's, M-38A1, and CCKW, why wait for trouble?
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Re: Anyone adding 2 cycle oil with TCW3 spec. to their gas ??

Post by artificer » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:07 am

Similar scenario:
https://www.holtsauto.com/redex/story/
As for ethanol I went to help a guy with a Jeep in southern CA when there a few years ago. He was having trouble with idling & acceleration.
Eventually the top came off the carburettor & there was green stuff 'growing in the bowl. That & lack of use/hard driving was obviously causing his problems.

It is important to understand how the different fuels on the chart are rated Gasoline is rated by octane number & the lower fuels with cetane number.
They describe how the fuel is ignited & how it burns.
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Re: Anyone adding 2 cycle oil with TCW3 spec. to their gas ??

Post by Ben Dover » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:30 am

The E-10 sold in this area will turn a slimy green in as little as 5 months to the point my MB has refused to run. Lead Substitute and other storage additives do not always work.
Problem solved with Ethanol Free Gasoline. Will continue with LUCAS Fuel Conditioner tho.
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Re: Anyone adding 2 cycle oil with TCW3 spec. to their gas ??

Post by YLG80 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:02 am

The E-10 sold in this area will turn a slimy green in as little as 5 months to the point my MB has refused to run
The E10 fuel has a shelf life of 3 months, and only in the best conditions of temperature.
The winter period is killing the engines and makes the garden machines mechanics very happy :D !

As we can no longer get the 95 ethanol-free here in Belgium, and as I'm not prepared to remove the ethanol from the gasoline which is not very difficult,
I'm going to definitely switch to the 98 ethanol-free with the TC-W3 oil.
Proportionally the 95 E10 is more expensive (much higher consumption) so that's not a bad solution to switch to the 98.
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Re: Anyone adding 2 cycle oil with TCW3 spec. to their gas ??

Post by sjalbert » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:41 pm

YLG80 wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:57 am
From the heavier to the lighter : asphalt base, industrial oil, home heating oil, diesel fuel, jet/aviation fuel, gasoline, LPG.
Aviation gasoline (100 LL is the most common) as used by piston engine airplane engines (like the Rotax engine that Mike referenced) is a higher octane gasoline it is different from jet/aviation fuel that is used in turbine engines.

Road diesel (used in diesel cycle piston engines for cars & trucks) is typically #2 diesel and is ignited by compression or glow plugs). Jet/aviation fuel is typically JP4 or JP5. Initial ignition is typically provided by an igniter. After initial ignition it combustion will continue as long as a proper air / fuel mixture is provided.
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Re: Anyone adding 2 cycle oil with TCW3 spec. to their gas ??

Post by raymond » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:29 pm

My family has been in the fuel business with Shell since at least 1940. Gasoline, whether it has ethanol or not, is degraded by the presence of oxygen. Keep your tank full and your cans full and you will have less problems.

The rating for octane has also changed since the 1960's. Today's ratings use both the Research and Motor Octane method and average them together. The old way of displaying octane was just the Research Octane rating. This tends to give a much higher rating. That is why 100 octane premium gasoline from the 60's is roughly equivalent to today's 93 octane premium for it's anti knock qualities in high compression engines. It is also why some high performance engines would still knock even with 96 octane gasoline under the old rating system. Today's average of Research and Motor octane gives a much better indication of how the fuel will resist premature auto ignition under real driving conditions.

A similar system is used for aviation fuels. The current LL100 gasoline would score much higher in the octane rating system in use for aviation fuel used for military aircraft in WW2.

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Re: Anyone adding 2 cycle oil with TCW3 spec. to their gas ??

Post by raymond » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:31 pm

There are also ways of removing ethanol from gasoline. But since ethanol is high in octane, you should start with premium gasoline or you will end up with a gasoline with a low octane rating.

What you are doing is a type of solvent extraction. Essentially what you do is take advantage of the fact that while ethanol dissolves and forms a solution with both gasoline and water, it has a higher affinity for water. In this case you are wishing to remove the ethanol. (the solute) You add water (the solvent) to the gasoline/ethanol mix (your feed stock) until the ethanol/water mix (called raffinate) undergoes a phase separation and drops out of suspension in the gasoline and settles to the bottom of your vessel. From there, you either drain the water/alcohol mix from your vessel or pour the gasoline off the top. The ethanol water mix can be left to evaporate. Any toxic denaturing chemicals, typically xylene, toluene, or benzene, will stay in the gasoline.

You can buy a clear separation vessel with a tapered bottom that ends in a valve for pouring off the water ethanol mix, but it might be easier to find a place that sells ethanol free gasoline.

Here is my bottom line:

My experience is that you won't have any trouble with ethanol if you have a clean fuel system to begin with. If you are dealing with a legacy system that has never been exposed to ethanol, the ethanol, being a new solvent will remove deposits that gasoline left behind and could not redissolve. That is why so many people have trouble with old vehicles that start running ethanol without first purging and cleaning the entire fuel delivery system before running the ethanol fuel.

When the ethanol mandate started, we sure went through and awful lot of filters on the dispensers at our stations. More so on the ones with the oldest tanks.

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Re: Anyone adding 2 cycle oil with TCW3 spec. to their gas ??

Post by YLG80 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:02 am

Raymond wrote:
Gasoline, whether it has ethanol or not, is degraded by the presence of oxygen. Keep your tank full and your cans full and you will have less problems.
Thanks for that information from an insider and for the method to extract the ethanol from the gasoline :D.
As I mentioned, I will not try to extract the ethanol from gas. Guess why :D :D ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSnE4MYwRzs
As you mentioned, it's always better to refill the tank by the end of the day to avoid condensation.
I believe it is a good practice in the army.

The problem with water in the ethanol fuel is very well demonstrated in that video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeCyFxoWPpo

The main issue with the ethanol, is that the oxygen is included in one of the gasoline components : the ethanol.
And there is a lot which is why the ethanol is being used in fuel cells. This is also the reason why certain engines are running lean.

That makes the ethanol hydrophilic while the standard gasoline is hydrophobic. That's a reason why the Exx fuel has a shorter shelf life.
So on the long term, even if refilling the tank on a daily basis, we are going to have problems (corrosion) with our non sealed fuel system.
We even don't know what happens with water contamination in the gas supply chain.

Here are interesting results of a study on water with ethanol fuel made in the University of Nebraska Lincoln:
Water percentage attracted in fuel, the rest accumulates at the bottom of the tank :o :
E0 (ethanol free) : zero percent of water
E10 : 0.41% of water
E15: 0.85% of water
Remember also the temperature issue described in a previous post.

Interesting results on additives/stabilizers supposed to resolve that water problem by holding the water in solution with gas allowing it to move through the engine safely. Sorry no test on the Lucas additive :
Ethanol_Stabilizers-Test.jpg
Ethanol_Stabilizers-Test.jpg (108.3 KiB) Viewed 60 times
As suspected by Fabrizio, many additives are just useless :D .
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Re: Anyone adding 2 cycle oil with TCW3 spec. to their gas ??

Post by YLG80 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:49 am

I've found another study made in a lab in Texas.
They have tested also the 2 stroke TC-W3 marine oil that I'm using in my engine since the rebuild.

It's an additive lubricity test.
They are making standardized tests using a ball bearing to measure the wear scar.

The fuel
-The Research firm obtained a quantity of “untreated” ULSD fuel from a supplier.
This fuel was basic ULSD fuel intended for use in diesel engines.
However, this sample was acquired PRIOR to any attempt to additize the fuel for the purpose of replacing lost lubricity.
In other words, it was a “worst case scenario, very dry diesel fuel” that would likely cause damage to any fuel delivery system.
This fuel was tested using the HFRR at the Southwest Research Laboratory.
This fuel was determined to have a very high HFRR score of 636 microns, typical of an untreated ULSD fuel.
ULSD = Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel.

Method:
Diesel fuel and other fluids are tested for lubricating ability using a device called a “High Frequency Reciprocating Rig” or HFRR.
The HFRR is currently the internationally accepted, standardized method to evaluate fluids for lubricating ability.
It uses a ball bearing that reciprocates or moves back and forth on a metal surface at a very high frequency for a duration of 90 minutes.
The machine does this while the ball bearing and metal surface are immersed in the test fluid (in this case, treated diesel fuel).
At the end of the test the ball bearing is examined under a microscope and the “wear scar” on the ball bearing is measured in microns.
The larger the wear scar, the poorer the lubricating ability of the fluid.
SCAR = SCale WeAR

I've made a table with their test results:
Study_Texas_Results-sorted.gif
Study_Texas_Results-sorted.gif (136.57 KiB) Viewed 33 times
The lab conclusions :
Products 1 through 4 were able to improve the unadditized fuel to an HFRR score of 460 or better.
This meets the strictest requirements requested by the Engine Manufacturers Association.

Products 1 through 9 were able to improve the unadditized fuel to an HFRR score of 520 or better, meeting the U.S. diesel fuel requirements for maximum wear scar in a commercially available diesel fuel.

Products 16 through 19 were found to cause the fuel/additive blend to perform worse than the baseline fuel.
The cause for this is speculative.
This is not unprecedented in HFRR testing and can be caused by alcohol or other components in the additives.
Further investigation into the possibilities behind these poor results will investigated.
Any additive testing within +/- 20 microns of the baseline fuel could be considered to have no significant change.
The repeatability of this test allows for a +/- 20 micron variability to be considered insignificant.
The TC-W3 two stroke oil is not bad regarding the lubricity and certainly a cheap additive.
In the test, they have used a 200:1 ratio. I'm using a 500:1 ratio.

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Re: Anyone adding 2 cycle oil with TCW3 spec. to their gas ??

Post by Ben Dover » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:40 am

Who sells this particular TC-W3 two stroke Marine Oil in the USA?
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Re: Anyone adding 2 cycle oil with TCW3 spec. to their gas ??

Post by 85jeepcj » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:52 am

Super tech brand is Walmart

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