Canvas covers opinions

1959 - 1978, M151, M151A1, M151A2, Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the M151.
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graffspee
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Canvas covers opinions

Post by graffspee » Thu Aug 12, 2021 1:41 pm

So I just have no luck when it comes to canvas tops and trailer covers.... My Canvas top for my 151 looked good and has held up physically over the 6 years I have had it but I went to clean it one day a little over a year ago and when I started washing it off all the dye started running out of it . So it needs to be replaced at some point now. For my M-416 I was lucky enough to find an original NOS one about 5 years ago but I just had to replace it because the canvas got a bad spot in a section where the canvas started to rot. I ordered a replacement form OD Cloth the color is no where even close to being the correct OD green. Its well made and the canvas is good quality but the color is terrible. Its way to light . SO my question is Does anyone make 151 canvas tops and trailer covers out of the right OD color canvas that are quality materials and not cheap overseas canvas? For me the color is extremely important if I am going to spend nearly $1K for a canvas top I want it to look correct....


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W. Winget
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Re: Canvas covers opinions

Post by W. Winget » Thu Aug 12, 2021 4:12 pm

Option B, go to a TrueValue, buy a can of "Farmhouse" (it's a retired color, but might be in their database, it's a shade of Olive Drab) have it mixed in a waterbase, thin it, wet the canvas then let the canvas stop dripping (10 min?) or wipe excess water off and paint it (spray gun would be nice) should end up with a fairly good stable color. You can always try this on your old canvas for the $25 the can of exterior paint will cost....

"Farmhouse" is sort of WWII OD, but with a tinge more of black. (like later canvas color)

Whereas D197 "Cliff" is a straight up WWII OD like Ordnance pieces would be painted (yellow green) (oil base works well for monuments and such left outdoors)
https://www.truevaluepaint.com/explore- ... olor/Cliff

Of course if you are buying canvas for 1K a pop, this may not yield the results you are expecting, but to each his own. :D
V/R W. Winget
Looking for 1918 Standard B 'Liberty' truck parts

Rickf
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Re: Canvas covers opinions

Post by Rickf » Thu Aug 12, 2021 6:16 pm

I am not sure about the tops but you do know that the OD Green used om M-151's is different from the OD Green used on WWII vehicles don't you? And if you got that from Dave have you asked him about the off color? I would find it very hard to believe that he would not make it right if it was in fact wrong.

I am wondering if whatever you are using to clean your canvas may be causing some of your issues? Mild soap and water only, Anything else will take out the preservatives and even with that you do need to renew them occasionally. I believe the stuff used is Canvak?
1964 M151A1
1984 M1008
1967 M416
04/1952 M100
12/1952 M100- Departed
AN/TSQ-114A Trailblazer- Gone

graffspee
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Re: Canvas covers opinions

Post by graffspee » Fri Aug 13, 2021 2:13 am

Rickf wrote:
Thu Aug 12, 2021 6:16 pm
I am not sure about the tops but you do know that the OD Green used om M-151's is different from the OD Green used on WWII vehicles don't you? And if you got that from Dave have you asked him about the off color? I would find it very hard to believe that he would not make it right if it was in fact wrong.

I am wondering if whatever you are using to clean your canvas may be causing some of your issues? Mild soap and water only, Anything else will take out the preservatives and even with that you do need to renew them occasionally. I believe the stuff used is Canvak?

My original top I got for the 151 was from Army Jeep Surplus and All I used to wash it was Dawn and water. And the dye came out of it . Luckily I had started on a bottom corner but that corner is white now . I know a lot about dyes and it told me that the canvas had not been treated and was not colorfasted.

As far as the new cover I just got for the M-416 from OD Cloth It is not a OD for a 1960's era trailer or Jeep.I know a good deal about the colors they used for canvas and webbing from WW2 up into the 1980's and the color of this is the modern dark green they started using in the 1980's .As I stated I original had a NOS original 1967 contract cover on the trailer and the new cover is not even in the same ball park color wise as what the color should be. I am not complaining about the quality of the canvas itself and the construction. It is top notch but I just find it aggravating that the color is so off. I could post pictures of my original and the new one to show this. I was mainly just wanting to know others experience with this . I know most are not as picky about the colors of stuff but it is just me and it annoys me when it is not right . Especially on something I spent a lot of time restoring and trying to get right.

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D Pizzoferrato
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Re: Canvas covers opinions

Post by D Pizzoferrato » Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:22 am

For years, I have refused to get dragged into the futile discussion about the "correct" color. I'm not sure what it is (maybe Covid), but lately there seems to be more and more of these "correct" color notions.

I'm glad I'm close to walking away from all of this. Here is a recent update to our web site:

Cotton Duck (Canvas) shade (OD #7)

All of our cotton duck is sourced from one of the country's oldest and largest government vehicular textile product manufacturers (in business since the late 1800s). The raw roll goods (greige goods) are woven to this manufacturer's specs based on Mil-spec requirements and then shipped to the finishing mill where the Mil-spec treatment and coloring is applied. The finishing mill has been in operation since 1922. This has been our fabric supply chain for over 30 years, insuring that our raw materials meet the stringent Military Specifications. All of our cotton duck is finished in OD #7 with a mildew, water, and flame resistant treatment, as per the Mil-spec.

OD #7 is a finish that will be subject to shade variations (shading) based on numerous factors in the finishing process. Shading can vary widely within a dye lot (normally a 2000 yd run of fabric), and can vary within a roll within the dye lot. There are no absolutes in OD #7.

  Cotton duck used for exterior canvas (Tops, Side Curtains, Tarps, etc.) is a different fabric and treatment than cotton duck used in seating products. Although both are treated,  as above, in OD #7, the final finishing, as well as shading, will make the colors present drastically differently. This is normal and is to be expected. Canvas colors are not intended to, nor supposed to match. Mil-spec canvas is not a fashion show or interior design item. It's purpose is utilitarian. Aesthetics are not involved. This is an industrial fabric. Mil-spec vehicular canvas items are designed to fulfill form, fit and function needs, as per the original drawings and specs.

  If you are of the misguided belief that all of your canvas should match, we are probably not your choice for a canvas supplier. If you like the shade of canvas that you saw at a show (a day ago, a week ago, a month ago, a year ago, multiple years ago), or you like the shade of canvas that we provided to a friend (a day ago, a week ago, a month ago, a year ago, multiple years ago), and are basing your buying decision on the aesthetics of that color, we are probably not your choice for a canvas supplier (see shading above).

  It's both disturbing and disheartening that I have to spell this out. I, and others, have noticed an emerging and dismaying trend over the last decade as to MV newbie restorer/owners incorrect, unrealistic and absurd notions as to the way surplus or mil-spec items "ought to be". If you hold or profess any of these unreasonable beliefs, we are probably not your choice for a canvas supplier.
David Pizzoferrato
Pizzoferrato Ent./Weebee Webbing
Visit our Website! www.odcloth.com for your Canvas needs

graffspee
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Re: Canvas covers opinions

Post by graffspee » Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:36 am

D Pizzoferrato wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:22 am
For years, I have refused to get dragged into the futile discussion about the "correct" color. I'm not sure what it is (maybe Covid), but lately there seems to be more and more of these "correct" color notions.

I'm glad I'm close to walking away from all of this. Here is a recent update to our web site:

Cotton Duck (Canvas) shade (OD #7)

All of our cotton duck is sourced from one of the country's oldest and largest government vehicular textile product manufacturers (in business since the late 1800s). The raw roll goods (greige goods) are woven to this manufacturer's specs based on Mil-spec requirements and then shipped to the finishing mill where the Mil-spec treatment and coloring is applied. The finishing mill has been in operation since 1922. This has been our fabric supply chain for over 30 years, insuring that our raw materials meet the stringent Military Specifications. All of our cotton duck is finished in OD #7 with a mildew, water, and flame resistant treatment, as per the Mil-spec.

OD #7 is a finish that will be subject to shade variations (shading) based on numerous factors in the finishing process. Shading can vary widely within a dye lot (normally a 2000 yd run of fabric), and can vary within a roll within the dye lot. There are no absolutes in OD #7.

  Cotton duck used for exterior canvas (Tops, Side Curtains, Tarps, etc.) is a different fabric and treatment than cotton duck used in seating products. Although both are treated,  as above, in OD #7, the final finishing, as well as shading, will make the colors present drastically differently. This is normal and is to be expected. Canvas colors are not intended to, nor supposed to match. Mil-spec canvas is not a fashion show or interior design item. It's purpose is utilitarian. Aesthetics are not involved. This is an industrial fabric. Mil-spec vehicular canvas items are designed to fulfill form, fit and function needs, as per the original drawings and specs.

  If you are of the misguided belief that all of your canvas should match, we are probably not your choice for a canvas supplier. If you like the shade of canvas that you saw at a show (a day ago, a week ago, a month ago, a year ago, multiple years ago), or you like the shade of canvas that we provided to a friend (a day ago, a week ago, a month ago, a year ago, multiple years ago), and are basing your buying decision on the aesthetics of that color, we are probably not your choice for a canvas supplier (see shading above).

  It's both disturbing and disheartening that I have to spell this out. I, and others, have noticed an emerging and dismaying trend over the last decade as to MV newbie restorer/owners incorrect, unrealistic and absurd notions as to the way surplus or mil-spec items "ought to be". If you hold or profess any of these unreasonable beliefs, we are probably not your choice for a canvas supplier.
I do not "Hold or Profess any of what you call "Beliefs" as you put it..... And I am not a "Newbee" when it comes to this subject and I am well aware of the variations in shades and colors of dyed canvas and materials based on treatments and dye batches. I am not ignorant to that at all . I am also not basing any of what I asked on something I saw at a show or event. I based it on what I have personally owned that was NOS unissued and what I have learned from decades of collecting and research on the subject. As I stated I had absolutely NO problem with the quality of the material and its construction .I am not going to get in the weeds with it at this point and I suppose I just should have kept my mouth shut and sucked it up . Sorry to have bothered everyone about it. I will let it lie and go away now...Peace.


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