Feather Your Own Bed--WI MV Bill

Discussion of Local, State, and Federal issues regarding MV Legislation, MV use restrictions, MV registration refusals, etc. As these issues may ultimately affect other jurisdictions, information and education of all MV owners is crucial for the future ownership and use of our MVs.
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Dave K.
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Feather Your Own Bed--WI MV Bill

Post by Dave K. » Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:29 pm

Well it looks like the most UNdeserving of MV vehicles--not even historic--is getting the nod in WI when it comes to this bill--please oppose this bill and let's get back on track! Kill it with your calls!

ATTENTION ALL HMV OWNERS

Following a meeting with the chairman of the Wis Senate transportation committee, the committee last week changed the two senate bills regarding registration of military vehicles.

The Erpenbach bill SB 392 was amended to include ONLY PINZGAUER military trucks under collector rules. Sen. Glen Grothman added an amendment to include the M715 Jeep vehicle. THIS IS VERY BAD. IT STARTS DOWN THE SLIPPERY SLOPE OF CREATING AN “APPROVED LIST”. That would be impossible with all the different military models. Very bad for the hobby. And is not what we want to see happen.

THIS CHANGES THE ERPENBACH BILL 100% FROM WHAT WAS ORIGINALLY PROPOSED IN THE HEARING!!!!!!

The bill, SB392 was passed out of the committee and will be sent to the Senate floor for debate and full vote very soon. WE recommend that your urge your club members to contact their senators and ask them to OPPOSE SB392 because it is incomplete and favors only two vehicle models and excludes hundreds of others.

The bill the HMV and MVPA helped craft and is not opposed by the DOT/DMV is SB404. It was also voted out of committee on a 6-0 vote “as is” without amendments and provides protection for “Any former military vehicle” (Wheeled). The committee chairman wants our bill SB404 to get to the senate floor quickly.

SB404 is not everything we wanted but darn close. PLEASE CONTACT YOUR STATE SENATORS AND URGE THEM TO VOTE IN FAVOR OF SB404.

The same will happen in the assembly this week. AB592, the Zigmunt bill (same as SB404) will be voted out of committee as is on the 11th. Oppose the Pope Roberts/ Erpenbach bill.


Sorry but this has become a joke when true HMVs have been discounted and Pinz's are considered over vehicles like MBs, CCKWs, halftracks, and so--American iron--that which truly made a difference in history! Am I ticked off? You bet! Because it's funny how this alert didn't come from the very people who backed the Erpenbach Bill.

Fight this folks and get the true HMVs back on track and keep'em on the road. I know I will be pulling out all of the stops to bring the reality of this fubar to light with some amigos in the transportation committee as well as the senate in order to turn things around.

How the heck did we reach a point where foreign vehicles are considered more deserving than the American ones? Perhaps those that had a hand in all of this can shed some light! Is this truly what the Erpenbach bill has become? If so then 99% of the MV owners in WI have been betrayed . . . .

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Re: Feather Your Own Bed--WI MV Bill

Post by Kevin Lockwood » Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:50 pm

Dave K.
I wish I could say I had all the details but I wanted to just reply to some of the points in your post.
After winning this battle in Kansas you can bet I am PO'd that we are at this point in Wisconsin.
I agree that the Pinz is not the iconic MV nor is it the poster child I would want for PR use in the MV vs DOT battle. That said, The pinz group was the first to begin cohesive opposition to the DOT actions. The group fought and won legal decisions against the DOT. They created legislation that would have protected all MVs. 392 was a good bill it was pro MV.
The MVPA pushed 404 a bill created by the DOT, its no wonder that the pinz group would be less than thrilled to have us ride their coattails, as we were doing everything possible to promote the DOT bill. I am saddened that 392 has been amended to incl. only pinz. I had hoped that wise folks within Wisconsin and the national MVPA would see 392 as our best hope of preserving HMV rights on the highways.
Your statement that it has become "...a joke when true HMVs have been discounted and Pinz's are considered over vehicles like MBs, CCKWs, halftracks, and so--American iron--....." would be something I could agree with. I think this very issue was what convinced me that the MVPA and 404 was misguided. I checked on 404 as soon as I found out about it. Dave, I was shocked to hear that without even fighting the DOT, halftracks were written off immediately!!!!!!! MBs were to be subjected to restrictions while CJs could motor about Wisconson un-challenged. 404 was bad from the start!
My guess is that 392 supporters felt abandoned by the MVPA and other MV owners. Hell I think MV owners have abandoned the MV.
Finally the reason that SB404 is unopposed is because it is the oppositions bill and we (the MVPA) support it!!!!
I would encourage those of you in Wisconsin to KILL SB404
and beg 392 supporters to retract the last minute changes to the only good piece of legislation we had.
Kevin Lockwood
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Re: Feather Your Own Bed--WI MV Bill

Post by Ben Dover » Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:27 pm

A Professional Military Vehicle Consultant independent of the locals may have helped. Jeff is the right man to represent the collectors from Wisconsin. Not all legislators and the heads of state agencies have the same concept of MVs and their place in history. Hindsight is 20-20, perhaps their concept of MV's would be different had they been invited to some of the major events and club meetings earlier.
Last edited by Ben Dover on Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Feather Your Own Bed--WI MV Bill

Post by gerrykan » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:55 pm

Dave K. wrote:Well it looks like the most UNdeserving of MV vehicles--not even historic--is getting the nod in WI when it comes to this bill--please oppose this bill and let's get back on track! Kill it with your calls!

ATTENTION ALL HMV OWNERS

Following a meeting with the chairman of the Wis Senate transportation committee, the committee last week changed the two senate bills regarding registration of military vehicles.

The Erpenbach bill SB 392 was amended to include ONLY PINZGAUER military trucks under collector rules. Sen. Glen Grothman added an amendment to include the M715 Jeep vehicle. THIS IS VERY BAD. IT STARTS DOWN THE SLIPPERY SLOPE OF CREATING AN “APPROVED LIST”. That would be impossible with all the different military models. Very bad for the hobby. And is not what we want to see happen.

THIS CHANGES THE ERPENBACH BILL 100% FROM WHAT WAS ORIGINALLY PROPOSED IN THE HEARING!!!!!!

The bill, SB392 was passed out of the committee and will be sent to the Senate floor for debate and full vote very soon. WE recommend that your urge your club members to contact their senators and ask them to OPPOSE SB392 because it is incomplete and favors only two vehicle models and excludes hundreds of others.

The bill the HMV and MVPA helped craft and is not opposed by the DOT/DMV is SB404. It was also voted out of committee on a 6-0 vote “as is” without amendments and provides protection for “Any former military vehicle” (Wheeled). The committee chairman wants our bill SB404 to get to the senate floor quickly.

SB404 is not everything we wanted but darn close. PLEASE CONTACT YOUR STATE SENATORS AND URGE THEM TO VOTE IN FAVOR OF SB404.

The same will happen in the assembly this week. AB592, the Zigmunt bill (same as SB404) will be voted out of committee as is on the 11th. Oppose the Pope Roberts/ Erpenbach bill.
This part of Dave K's post appears to be from an email that catman/Jeff Rowsam sent out. SB404 is what he supports. It showed up on the steelsoldiers site also, posted by toddm. http://www.steelsoldiers.com/politics-r ... -a-10.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Roy

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Re: Feather Your Own Bed--WI MV Bill

Post by Kevin Lockwood » Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:04 pm

Claims have been made that the MV owners of Wisconsin are satisfied with 404. I wish we could poll G and SteelS members. As for me I do not want my mvpa supporting 404.
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41 White M2 halftrack
42 Autocar M2A1 was M2 halftrack
42 Autocar M3-75 halftrack
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43 Diamond T M3A1 halftrack
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Re: Feather Your Own Bed--WI MV Bill

Post by Kevin Lockwood » Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:36 am

Just as I thought. There is more to the story. The Pinz group did not ask for 392 to be Pinz only it was MV inclusive until the last meeting with the Senate Chair of the trans committee. He was confused as to why the MVPA was supporting 404 but wanted it more like 392. He said we ask for 404 and it is ours. Since no one from the MVPA was backing 392 it was to become a Pinz only bill. So there we were supporting the DOTs very restrictive bill while 392 is narrowed because it has no support from MV owners??????
Kevin Lockwood
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41 White M2 halftrack
42 Autocar M2A1 was M2 halftrack
42 Autocar M3-75 halftrack
42 White M4A1 was M4 halftrack
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Re: Feather Your Own Bed--WI MV Bill

Post by gerrykan » Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:49 pm

I've been an MVPA member since the 1980's(MVCC/MVPA # 8607), and have never thought very hard about leaving, but I may need to re-evaluate why I am a member.
I thought with the newly elected directors, and others, like(Supply Line editor) David Doyle taking a more prominent role in the organization, they would lead it into the future.
I may have been wrong. :cry:
I have owned a little of everything over the years, and WWII vehicles are my preference, but I realize that if the organization wants to be anything more than an ever dwindling 'old mans' club, you had better be progressive.
Roy

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Re: Feather Your Own Bed--WI MV Bill

Post by Ben Dover » Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:08 pm

Fighting this battle against WI legislature with hyped up MV owners may not be a good idea.
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Re: Feather Your Own Bed--WI MV Bill

Post by Tom Wolboldt » Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:47 am

Hello gerrykan/Roy,

I can understand your unhappiness with the ongoing process in Wisconsin.

You are now in charge and you are the MVPA Rep.!!! So what would you do ? Here are the starting facts as I understand them.

1 - The current problem is a State issue involving Wisconsin.
2 - Wisconsin DMV decides former military vehicles were not designed for on-road use and under Wisconsin Law these same vehicles can not be titled or plated by Wisconsin owners.
3 - Options:
A - Live with NO former military vehicles allowed on Wisconsin roads by private/commercial owners ?
B - Go to Court to have the Law and DMV policy defined and hope the ruling comes out on your side. DMV policy is in place until court rules. Law Suit funded by Whom ? Your MVPA dues are barely meeting expenses at this time. Require all Wisconsin members to fund the lawsuit no matter what the cost is and with Wisconsin non members owners paying nothing ?
C - Create a Law that allows for former military vehicles to be titled and plated in Wisconsin that can be passed by Wisconsin lawmakers and signed by the Governor ( many of whom do not like miltary vehicles for whatever reasons )?
D - Other ?

I am looking forward to your input.

Tom Wolboldt MVPA Director
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Re: Feather Your Own Bed--WI MV Bill

Post by Tom Wolboldt » Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:01 am

Hi Kevin,

You wrote
He said we ask for 404 and it is ours. Since no one from the MVPA was backing 392 it was to become a Pinz only bill.
In the video of the Senate committee public hearing that I saw, the MVPA through Jeff Rosam showed support for both 392 and 404. Jeff did support 404 stronger from what I saw. So I feel your above statement is not entirely correct.
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Re: Feather Your Own Bed--WI MV Bill

Post by Kevin Lockwood » Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:56 am

Tom,
I am referring to a more recent meeting. It followed the open committee session. The meeting was held last week in Senator Holperin's office. Present were DOT attorney's Backing 404, MVPA Jeff Rowsam and Robert Anderson backing 404, Paul Underwood backing 392 and of course the Senator who is in the all important position of Chairman of the transportation committee. As I am told He wanted any input on the bills before they were passed out of committee. The Senator was asked by MVPA rep. if language from 392 could be added to 404 to make it less restrictive. The Senator replied that since the 404 supporters had been asking for this all along it could not be changed to be more like 392. We were getting just what we asked for. He then added that since 392 was based primarily on the courts ruling that Pinzgauers were legal in Wi. they would narrow 392 and "ram it down DOT's throat"
I think we needed this Senator on our team. I am certainly hoping that we would still oppose 404 because I believe it is the DOT's bill not ours. Thats why they supported 404 all along and have opposed 392.
It is a tough situation.
In answer to the questions you pose.
Your number 2. Re:DMV's decision to consider MVs off-road vehicles.
This is almost exactly what happened in Kansas. The DMV decided that since our motor vehicle statute did not specifically mention MVs as motor vehicles she did not have to tag/title them and could revoke previously issued titles. In Wisconsin it is that since the off-road statute says they do not have to tag off-raod vehicles and fails to mention specifically MVs they are free to restrict title to any vehicle THEY determine is off-road.
OK both in Kansas and Wisconsin a Governor appointed bureaucrat has woke up and interpreted the law.
3.
A. It is possible that Wisconsin will remove all MVs from the roads. That is what the Kansas DMV wanted. I suppose that 404 is a compromise that SUCKS but might be the best we can get. I just do not feel like we fought for anything else. We have Senators that supported 392 and would love to "ram it down the DOT's throat" but we come to committee supporting a DOT sanctioned bill?
B. I do not think it would take court action (although the 392 supporters have already won a court battle). In Kansas we simply added MV's to existing statute forcing the DMV/DOT to tag/title these vehicle (except fully tracked). Even if it required court hearings. We have a precedent winning battle against the DOT and a judge favorably disposed to putting the DOT in their place. In Wisconsin unlike Kansas they have several large vehicle collector's (names withheld) they have court rulings already in their favor, the Senate transportation chairman is predisposed to ramming down throats, they have a print/media company that makes a profit off of MV collector's. When we began the fight here in Kansas I would have given anything for a warchest like they have in Wisconsin.
C. I think our best shot is to oppose the DOT sponsored 404. Draft a MV bill even if it means waiting for the next session. I wish we had not missed the boat (392) but I fear it is too late to get on this wagon. I fear that if we accept 404 it allows the DMV to show that we accept the fact that MVs are off-road vehicles. That would not be Good.
D. Move to another state :cry:
From all of this I hope we can formalize a better organized response for future DMV/DOT problems.
With all do respect to Roy, please do not make this a MVPA membership dropping issue. I am proud of the MVPA and encourage all members to work with the elected BOD to make our organization stronger. My posts regarding this issue are meant to inform and create dialogue that would produce a better future for MVs. I am very unhappy with the course we have followed in this issue but all said and done I am not in Wisconsin, it is their fight?
Kevin Lockwood
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Re: Feather Your Own Bed--WI MV Bill

Post by Tom Wolboldt » Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:33 am

Hi Kevin,

As can be seen there are many variables involved in this case with no easy answers. This case has been like a 3-D chess match that has gone on for two years now. A point in fact - There are very very few persons that are proficient in 3-D Chess.
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Re: Feather Your Own Bed--WI MV Bill

Post by gerrykan » Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:12 pm

Tom Wolboldt,
I don't have the time available to respond tonight. I will try to post tomorrow night at the latest.
Roy

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Re: Feather Your Own Bed--WI MV Bill

Post by gerrykan » Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:09 pm

Tom Wolboldt,
I wish that I possessed the tact and eloquence of people such as Kevin Lockwood when voicing my opinion, but I don’t. So......

Your question was: What would I do?
The same thing Paul Underwood is doing, fighting to be able to use my vehicles as I see fit.
I don’t purchase collector tags or collector insurance because I don’t want the restrictions that go with them.

I have always thought the best action plan was to follow Kevin Lockwood’s advice of amending existing statutes to include former military vehicles. Although if this amendment included severely restricted vehicle use(as with the bill currently supported by the MVPA), it would be meaningless to me as I seldom participate in parades and car shows. At that point I would no longer have reason to own a former military vehicle.

Concerning a lawsuit,
I am no lawyer so I may be wrong here, but I would think the administrative hearing that Paul Underwood won should have some impact towards a legal precedent being set.
Who pays for it is a good question.
Perhaps the MVPA should look towards the NRA and other groups for guidance. They ask their members to donate money above the yearly dues for fighting court and legislative battles such as this on a voluntary basis.
I understand that the NRA dwarfs the MVPA in membership, but if a fight does not materialize, the money could establish a war chest for the future(if this is possible within the non-profit laws).

You state the annual dues are barely paying the bills. Why have dues not been raised if the situation is dire? I would guess that my income level would place me in the bottom 1/3 of MVPA members, and I can easily afford $40 per year. I don’t think $50 would be out of line considering the quality of the publications. An annual subscription to the Power Wagon Advertiser is $44.75; Classic Military Vehicles, GBP54.96 annually; Military Vehicles Magazine, $5.99 per issue news stand; Military Machines International, $8.99 per issue news stand.
Would the membership accept a rate increase? I don’t know. Do you? So why don’t we ask them.
A member survey included in an issue of Supply Line could answer this question and more. Although some might cry foul, an informal survey, conducted by the BOD instead of a certified accountant, would be fine by me. I may not agree with some of your(BOD) actions, but I never said I didn’t trust you.

If my answers did not satisfy your request, or if clarification is needed, please ask.

I still stand by all my previous statements made on this matter.
Roy

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Re: Feather Your Own Bed--WI MV Bill

Post by James Hybicki » Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:13 pm

no matter how this issue goes in wisconsin it will rub me raw in some spot that will hurt. the state of wisconsin has had a hard on for military vehicles for years and has been quitely enforcing unwritten rules on the title issue and plate issue much to the lirritation of the mv owners here.

i have resigned myself to being screwed by the state of wisconsin again and will at best have an antique type plate which in wisconsin means only being able to drive it to events, to repairs, to storage, to parades. i personaly have my mv sitting in my driveway for 8 months of the year so if i choose to drive it its there and ready to go for any type of jaunt i wish whenever i wish. the bureaucrats in the wisconsin dot and the brain trust in madison seem bent on taking that away from us who enjoy the sparton vehicle and the rush of the wind around us.

my mv is going down the road this spring and hopefully someone in another state can enjoy it whenever they want.

i have my eye on a 1946 cj2a to pick up when the sale is completed.

then i guess that 34 year uninterupted run in the MVCC/MVPA and the 30 year uninterupted run in the mvccwi/mmva will come to a close as i won't need any military vehicle club to belong to to drive a cj. too bad as it used to be fun, but cj's are windy also and the socialist state of wisconsin seems to think the cj is a much safer vehicle (at least for now anyway). and you all probably know i want the government looking out for me whenever i can have them do it, because it doesn't cost me anything since they are already there anyway. (and still my paid taxes and state fees went up 18% this year, wait......something's not right there...... no it must be my imagination)

the dems in this state seem to think that if they screw you, over tax you, and lie to you, that when we all move to another state it will make it better for them. they seem to forget that socialist states never prosper because eventually they run out of other peoples money to spend. (hint, hint, congress/senate).

any way thats my opinion from the dark side.

hybicki
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