Wisconsin - public legislative hearing on HMVs 12/3/09

Discussion of Local, State, and Federal issues regarding MV Legislation, MV use restrictions, MV registration refusals, etc. As these issues may ultimately affect other jurisdictions, information and education of all MV owners is crucial for the future ownership and use of our MVs.
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undysworld
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Re: Wisconsin - public legislative hearing on HMVs 12/3/09

Post by undysworld » Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:37 am

Want to read more?

Document Requirements are too vague to enforce fairly.
341.269(2) is too vague about the specific documents needed to register a vehicle, and puts a potentially impossible burden on the applicant to provide documentation of a vehicle's past. What constitutes "evidence satisfactory to the department that the vehicle may be registered..."? There should be no ambiguity about what documentation is satisfactory. The original federal importation documents (in the case of a vehicle newly imported into the U.S.), a valid U.S. state title, or the original bill of sale from the U.S. armed forces, are sufficient, unless there is specific evidence to suggest a problem with a particular vehicle. (Despite my Dept. of Administration appeal ruling, WisDOT is currently refusing to register two Pinzgauers which were legally imported and which have valid U.S. state titles. So leaving it up to DOT employees to decide obviously doesn't work.)

Valid out-of-state titles should be satisfactory. The U.S. Constitution requires Wisconsin to honor every other U.S. state's documents and legal records, including vehicle titles. Title 49 US Code even specifies a system, which must be used to establish the validity of an out-of-state title, under sections 30502 and 30503.

The importation of foreign ex-military vehicles is overseen by the U.S. DOT/NHTSA. Their procedure determines what documents should be considered satisfactory. The following documents are required to title and license a newly-imported-into the-U.S. Pinzgauer in California, according to Scott Ingham from Expedition Imports:
Bill of Lading listing the Vehicle - Copy OK
Foreign Title - Original
VIN Verification - Original
Application for Original Registration - Original
Wet Stamped (Original Stamp and Signature Required) Copy of the Entry
Summary filed with Customs. (Form 7501)

The original U.S. army document should be satisfactory. When the U.S. armed forces disposes of surplus vehicles, the purchaser of a motor vehicle is provided with a form "SF97" if the vehicle is intended to be titled in the U.S.
http://www.govliquidation.com/terms....R%20OF%20TITLE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The purchaser of any other used vehicle is not typically expected to provide additional paperwork besides a valid U.S. title unless there is valid reason to suspect fraud. Asking the owner of an ex-military vehicle to come up with documentation which may stretch back through decades of previous owners is unreasonable. If there are specific documents required to allow the titling and registration of ex-military vehicles, both domestic and foreign, these requirements must be specified.
1966 AM-General M35A-2
1973 DeTomaso Pantera
1976 Steyr-Puch Pinzgauer 712M
M-416 Trailer (behind Pinzgauer)
1980 AMC Jeep CJ-5

Info on Legislation at: http://www.alfaheaven.com/MilitarySecti ... Legis.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

undysworld
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Re: Wisconsin - public legislative hearing on HMVs 12/3/09

Post by undysworld » Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:37 am

Section 4 does is confusingly written and does not accurately reflect federal regulations over foreign-marketed motor vehicles.
Any motor vehicle, ex-military or otherwise, which was not originally marketed in the U.S. will lack a NHTSA FMVSS-compliance label. This does not mean that the vehicle necessarily lacks required equipment, it merely means that NHTSA has never certified whether it meets the equipment requirements or not.

Such vehicles that are less than 25 years old can only be imported by a Registered Importer (R.I.), and must be brought into FMVSS compliance. Two labels are then applied to the vehicle by the R.I. signifying FMVSS compliance. The vehicle should be able to be titled/registered as a normal vehicle.

Such vehicles that are more than 25 years old when imported, are considered exempted from FMVSS requirements by U.S. DOT/NHTSA (Title 49 USC Sec. 30112(b)(9)). In the case of my Pinzgauer, NHTSA's intent was clearly stated in a letter of interpretation wherein they determined Pinzgauers to be "Motor Vehicles" intended primarily for operation on highways.
http://isearch.nhtsa.gov/files/2788y.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In order that Wisconsin law reflect federal regulations and the licensing policies of the other U.S. states, this bill must provide for the licensing and operation of foreign-market vehicles (ex-military and otherwise) which are imported over 25-years old and have been determined to be "Motor Vehicles" by U.S. DOT/NHTSA.
1966 AM-General M35A-2
1973 DeTomaso Pantera
1976 Steyr-Puch Pinzgauer 712M
M-416 Trailer (behind Pinzgauer)
1980 AMC Jeep CJ-5

Info on Legislation at: http://www.alfaheaven.com/MilitarySecti ... Legis.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Cobra Doc
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Re: Wisconsin - public legislative hearing on HMVs 12/3/09

Post by Cobra Doc » Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:17 pm

So, what would happen if you got ahold of one of the civilian 5% of Pinzgauers, and tried to register it?

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Re: Wisconsin - public legislative hearing on HMVs 12/3/09

Post by DaninNM » Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:15 pm

Import and license in some other state - for instance......NM requires only that you have a VIN insdpection by a specific type of police officer.....then you can take that to a title agent and get a title and registration by paying the fee.....if the vehicle is over 35 years old - you can get a 'horseless carriage' license 5 years for $40.....then take it to another state! They'll even ask y ou what model number you want to put onthe title....as in M151 :shock: or M3A1 :shock: ort M16A1 :shock:
reenacting and WWII history

undysworld
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Re: Wisconsin - public legislative hearing on HMVs 12/3/09

Post by undysworld » Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:46 am

Cobra Doc,

Well, I was only able to locate one civilian-model Pinz in the US. It's owned by a guy named Per Elliason, but he's got no plans to sell. :cry:

His truck was imported by Steyr as a prototype for FMVSS testing prior to U.S. marketing. Reportedly it was NHTSA approved, but I haven't actually seen any documents. I do have pictures of his truck however.

I'd love to bring that to Wisconsin and see what they'd do. But knowing the DOT here, like I do, I'd expect that they'd refuse it too. I've already got a court order in my favor, and they're ignoring that. ??? Whad'ya do?

DaninNM,

Well, Wisconsin's got that closed too. There is a Wis. statute which states that if any Wis. citizen owns a vehicle which is registered in another state, that vehicle then falls under Wis. registration requirements. 341.40

I could move. :!:
1966 AM-General M35A-2
1973 DeTomaso Pantera
1976 Steyr-Puch Pinzgauer 712M
M-416 Trailer (behind Pinzgauer)
1980 AMC Jeep CJ-5

Info on Legislation at: http://www.alfaheaven.com/MilitarySecti ... Legis.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


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Re: Wisconsin - public legislative hearing on HMVs 12/3/09

Post by Joe Gopan » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:56 am

Creative interpretation of the subject vehicles will only serve to complicate matters, it will only cause the bureaucrats who have the upper hand in this matter dig in their heels.
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
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COL. BRUNO BROOKS (ARMY MOTORS) IS MY HERO

undysworld
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Re: Wisconsin - public legislative hearing on HMVs 12/3/09

Post by undysworld » Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:35 pm

This just in from our State Capitol: "Rep. Zigmunt has turned over the keys on this issue to the DOT and they have definitely slipped some, almost all, of Trans123 into the bill."

So far, they have received lots of support for this bill. ???

I sure hope that in 2 years or so, if all of our trucks are off the road, I'm not left sitting here saying, "I told you so.". :cry:

Please come and demand that this bill gets amended or rejected.
1966 AM-General M35A-2
1973 DeTomaso Pantera
1976 Steyr-Puch Pinzgauer 712M
M-416 Trailer (behind Pinzgauer)
1980 AMC Jeep CJ-5

Info on Legislation at: http://www.alfaheaven.com/MilitarySecti ... Legis.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Wisconsin - public legislative hearing on HMVs 12/3/09

Post by StudebakerM275 » Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:22 pm

The DVM offers an ANTIQUE plate for any and all vehicles built in 1945-prior.

They offer a Collector plate for Vehicles that are 20+years old.

I think they should at least make the MV's conform to the Collector plate restrictions, No loads over 500LB's no operation in the month of JAN.
or
Require that the 2.5T and smaller rig's be collector tagged or antique tagged.

then, alow the 5T and larger truck's to be registered as Company truck's, and if the larger truck is not going to be commercially used and maintained then, make them required to be tagged as collector hobbiest or antique plates . . .

Doing this way will ensure that the Larger truck can't not be privately registered and used commercially AKA No towing your camper trailer and or goose neck.

Few questions guys:

1. why are they trying to remove these trucks from the roadways in the first place ?

2. is there certain year ranges ?

3. are they going after them all ?

I thought a while back they are only going after 1968 and newer trucks ?


Mike
1953 Studebaker M275.
1962 GMC K4500.
1969 AMC-AMX.
1976 Arctic Cat Jag.
1977 Ford F350.
1982 AMC-Jeep J/20 Honcho.
1988 AMC-Jeep V8 Comanche .
1992 Trans Am GTA.
2007 Honda Rubicon.

undysworld
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Re: Wisconsin - public legislative hearing on HMVs 12/3/09

Post by undysworld » Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:50 pm

Mike,

What other vehicles get forced into a collector plate category, with all the restrictions? If you want to take your 1950 pickup and license it as an "auto" and use it for a daily driver, you can do so. You have to pay the annual fee, but you can do so if you want.

If you want to avoid the annual fee, and are willing to maintain it as historically correct, not modified, and are willing to accept the use restrictions (payload less than 500#, no operation in Jan.), then you can tag it with a "collector" plate. But that's if you want to.

Since that is so, and since we all pretty much agree (I think) that military vehicles are built at least as soundly as civilian models, why is it OK to do that with a civilian model, but not to do it with an ex-military vehicle?

Up until Dec. '06, when DMV started changing the law to suit their own tastes, an ex-military vehicle, whether U.S. ex-mil. or a properly imported foreign ex-mil. vehicle could be registered in Wisconsin with the plates that suited the owner's uses. My deuce has "farm" plates, and I only use it for farm purposes. My Pinzgauer has "light truck" plates, and I use it like I use my Toyota pickup with "light truck" plates. Except that the Pinzgauer sees less than 1000 miles per year.

Any bill which restricts ex-mil. vehicles to 'collector' plate restricted use only will kill this hobby, in Wisconsin first, and then it'll spread. That's my 2 cents worth. See you tomorrow.
1966 AM-General M35A-2
1973 DeTomaso Pantera
1976 Steyr-Puch Pinzgauer 712M
M-416 Trailer (behind Pinzgauer)
1980 AMC Jeep CJ-5

Info on Legislation at: http://www.alfaheaven.com/MilitarySecti ... Legis.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

StudebakerM275
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Re: Wisconsin - public legislative hearing on HMVs 12/3/09

Post by StudebakerM275 » Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:57 pm

My 62' GMC has had collector plates for 10 years and i towed for most of that time.

Nobody ever bothered me any...

I been driving my Deuce around for over 2 years pushing pulling towing hauling and it aint even got plates at all ;) !

But I'm got the paper work for collector plates which it'll have on it by the next time I drive it...

I bet ill be able to run about the farm using it to push pull haul n tow without any issues as I have done for years ! ! !

Mike
1953 Studebaker M275.
1962 GMC K4500.
1969 AMC-AMX.
1976 Arctic Cat Jag.
1977 Ford F350.
1982 AMC-Jeep J/20 Honcho.
1988 AMC-Jeep V8 Comanche .
1992 Trans Am GTA.
2007 Honda Rubicon.

StudebakerM275
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Re: Wisconsin - public legislative hearing on HMVs 12/3/09

Post by StudebakerM275 » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:46 pm

How did it go today ?

Mike
1953 Studebaker M275.
1962 GMC K4500.
1969 AMC-AMX.
1976 Arctic Cat Jag.
1977 Ford F350.
1982 AMC-Jeep J/20 Honcho.
1988 AMC-Jeep V8 Comanche .
1992 Trans Am GTA.
2007 Honda Rubicon.

undysworld
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Re: Wisconsin - public legislative hearing on HMVs 12/3/09

Post by undysworld » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:29 am

Well... From my perspective, it sure could have gone better. Rep. Zigmunt, Jeff Rowsam, and the DOT's Carson Frazier were allowed to speak freely. I timed them at Zigmunt 2:45, Rowsam 9:00 +, and Frazier 13:00 +.

The chair of the committee kicked me off at 3 minutes. I had 11 pgs. of comments prepared, but read less than 2. Apparently, the chair can do that. It didn't seem fair, but there you have it.

I approached Rep. Zigmunt and chair Steinbrink and requested a private meeting to go over my concerns, and they both responded somewhat openly. I will be contacting them today.

Jeff, of course, is in favor and said so. The other speakers were on both sides of the fence. Mostly, it sounded like they were concerned about being limited to Parade use only (me too) but a surprisingly large number supported the bill nonetheless. DOT has done an effective job of convincing them that their bill is the only option. Jeff seems to firmly believe this. I strongly disagree. (Jeff is not a bad guy. In fact, he's someone I'd be proud to spend time with. But I believe that he's been duped by the DOT into believing that any less-restrictive bill would never pass. Maybe he's right, but I'm not going to quit trying to maintain our rights to operate our trucks as we were able to before all this unpleasantness began.)

Following the meeting, I visited several Senators and Assembly reps. The fight is definitely not over. Zigmunt's bill still has to pass the Senate, and my Senator, Jon Erpenbach has promised to oppose it.

The problems with Zigmunt's bill remain. It will drastically limit HMV uses to Parades and maintenance ONLY. It still allows DOT enormous discretion as to what can be registered, since the ambiguous language leave lots of details to DOT's decision. Things like: vehicle markings, design, documents needed for registration, etc.

Unless these issues get corrected, we'll all be better off if Zigmunt's bill gets voted down.

Sen. Erpenbach's staff have indicated that they are willing to work on amending their own bill to properly address all HMV owner's concerns, if Zigmunt's bill cannot be written acceptably. I'll keep working with them.
1966 AM-General M35A-2
1973 DeTomaso Pantera
1976 Steyr-Puch Pinzgauer 712M
M-416 Trailer (behind Pinzgauer)
1980 AMC Jeep CJ-5

Info on Legislation at: http://www.alfaheaven.com/MilitarySecti ... Legis.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Wisconsin - public legislative hearing on HMVs 12/3/09

Post by Dave K. » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:40 am

Nothing like divided fronts . . . . .

StudebakerM275
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Re: Wisconsin - public legislative hearing on HMVs 12/3/09

Post by StudebakerM275 » Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:38 am

what in the HELL started this issue ? what is there concern about Mil-spec truck's on the road ways ?

I highly doubt its there age or they would be trying to pull Registrations on all vintage vehicles 57 chevy's n 63 Vettes ECT and so along. . .

The only issue i could see them maybe having is the Mil-spec trucks were more intended for off road uses ? . . .

But then again wasn't the HIGH WAYS n BI WAYS created for MILITARY TRANSPORT not civilian traffic ?

I have asked this question's 2 dozen times don't seem to get any responses. . .

Why are they after Mil-spec vehicles ?
and
Is there certain age ranges there pursuing ?

Mike
1953 Studebaker M275.
1962 GMC K4500.
1969 AMC-AMX.
1976 Arctic Cat Jag.
1977 Ford F350.
1982 AMC-Jeep J/20 Honcho.
1988 AMC-Jeep V8 Comanche .
1992 Trans Am GTA.
2007 Honda Rubicon.

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Re: Wisconsin - public legislative hearing on HMVs 12/3/09

Post by gerrykan » Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:04 pm

Mike,
Here is the original topic in the following link.
If your not registered to vote, I suggest that you register. You may want to talk to your State Representatives, and Senators, and vote them out next election if they don't support your right to own and operate these vehicles.

Original topic: http://www.g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=101394" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Roy

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