Wisconsin banning military vehicles?

Discussion of Local, State, and Federal issues regarding MV Legislation, MV use restrictions, MV registration refusals, etc. As these issues may ultimately affect other jurisdictions, information and education of all MV owners is crucial for the future ownership and use of our MVs.
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undysworld
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Post by undysworld » Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:40 pm

Hi Dave,

I don't actually have a letter in the case of the deuce, but I do have letters about the Jeep. Can you email me with your home email address, and I'll send copies directly?

If you'd like, I can give you the deuce owner's number.

I'm pretty computer-stupid. Most of my vehicles have carburetors! I don't even know how to scan multiple pages into one file, so I have to email them page by page.

If anybody else wants copies, I'll have one of the other Pinz owners assemble them into a smaller file.

Here's my email: undy@mhtc.net

Phone's 608 437-3465 if you want to talk.

Thanks,
Paul

undysworld
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Post by undysworld » Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:37 pm

There was another brief update in Madison's local newspaper, Isthmus: http://www.thedailypage.com/isthmus/art ... icle=23669

A local owner was advised today that the final decision in my hearing should be made this week. I'll post it when I get it.

Paul

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Post by undysworld » Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:13 am

Hi All,

As you are aware, I appealed the WisDOT/DMV's cancellation of my Title and Registration for my Pinzgauer.

A final decision was reached in the case yesterday. Judge David Schwarz upheld the proposed decision, and ruled that "For the reasons set forth above, the Department's order canceling the Wisconsin title and registration of the Pinzgauer owned by Paul Underwood is reversed.".

Now, Wisconsin HMV owners need to work together to create legislation which clarifies the ambiguities in our State Statutes that caused this problem in the first place. The interpretation which DMV applied in canceling my operating rights also threatens every other antique, home-built, and ex-military vehicle. Certain vehicles are simply exempted from Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards by federal regulation (ie: pre-'68, ex-military, and over-25-yr.old imports), and WisDOT/DMV policy must be directed to acknowledge this exemption.

Remember, last year the Secretary of WisDOT defended their refusal to register a 1943 US army Jeep, on the grounds it was ex-military and didn't meet federal safety standards. (For your information: 1- Vehicles manufactured prior to 1968 are exempted from safety equipment requirements because they were built before the law took effect. 2- A NHTSA letter allows the US military to sell off surplus equipment to the public without any modification/s to comply with safety equipment requirements.) For any ex-military vehicle owners who don't think this will effect you, think twice.

I do not know if this is the end, and if DMV will now re-issue Title and Registration for the Pinzgauers in Wisconsin. They have options for appealing the decision, within 30 days. It's now been one week shy of a full year that I have been unable to legally operate my Pinzgauer. I hope reason prevails, and that I can return it to the road.

I'll be working on posting relevant documents on our website: http://www.wisconsin-pinzgauers.org/

Be patient, we're busy here.

Thanks again for all your support.
Paul

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Post by undysworld » Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:05 am

PINZGAUERS ARE LEGAL IN WISCONSIN, AGAIN!!

Effective yesterday, Sept. 23, 2008, WisDOT/DMV will again issue titles and registrations for Steyr Puch Pinzgauers!

It's been a long year, and a hard fight.

To all of you who offered suggestions, encouragement, or sympathy, THANK YOU!!

Importantly, a NHTSA letter of interpretation was introduced (by the DOT!) which pretty clearly details the fact that ex-military vehicles are intended to be licensed for on-road operation. Here is a link, especially the last 3 sentences of paragraph 2:

http://isearch.nhtsa.gov/gm/94/nht94-1.78.html

Recently, WisDOT has been refusing to issue title/license for any ex-military vehicles, pending the outcome of "the Pinzgauer case".

So for any of you guys who may still be having troubles registering your ex-military 'whatevers', your troubles should be over with, for now.

However, WisDOT has formal rulemaking introduced, which, if passed, will again make ex-military vehicles illegal in Wisconsin. Trans 123 is already introduced, and must be abolished.

We must seek legislation which will guarantee that WisDOT recognizes the federal exemption from FMVSS requirements for pre-'68 vehicles, ex-military vehicles, and over-25-yr. old imported vehicles.

I will provide copies of any documents (or links to find them) to anyone who needs them. Please feel free to contact me directly.

undy@mhtc.net
(608) 437-3465
Paul Underwood

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Post by Mtn-Track » Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:10 am

Very nice work, Paul. Congratulations on your victory, but keep an eye on 'your six'! 8)


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Post by Kevin Lockwood » Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:33 am

Good Job!!!
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Post by JAB » Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:29 pm

Here's the news blurb:
http://www.wkowtv.com/global/video/flas ... d=29913631

& here's "the fine print" from Jeff Rowsam:

We were told by the DOT that as a result of our efforts, they were in the process of re-writing WIS CODE Trans 123 so that is was not in conflict of Fed interpretation of vehicle definitions. Current WI code as viewed for former military vehicles is in conflict with fed vehicle definitions. Changing trans 123 would take care of American HMV’s pre Jan 1 1968. As is they could remain under collector plate status.



That leaves the post 68 HMV’s to be written into a new state law (modification) that would exempt them from Fed Requirements like the Kansas and Ohio law in the HMV role.

That’s what we want and were or are working on.



When Underwood filed suit against the DOT, the state stopped all action of updating of code / law / policy, while the lawsuit is active.



We ain’t out of the woods yet!





jeff rowsam
-Jeff

GR8GPN2U!!!

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undysworld
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Post by undysworld » Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:51 am

Hi Jeff,

Thank you for chiming in here.

I'm pleased to hear that they are re-writing Trans 123, because as it was initially written, it did not recognize the federal exemption from Safety Standards which all American HMVs qualify for (ditto for over-25yr-old imported vehicles like Pinzgauers).

As it was originally written, Trans 123 would have required vehicles which were federally exempted, to be inspected by a federally registered importer at the expense of the owner, and then modified as required to meet FMVSS. Here's a link to the notice: http://www.legis.state.wi.us/rsb/code/r ... eg629b.pdf

But I'm confused by your comment regarding pre-'68 American HMVs. They already can be licensed with 'collector' plates. Currently, no Wisconsin law requires an on-road vehicle to meet FMVSS as a pre-condition of titling or registration. Wis. Stat. 341.10(6) only applies to off-road vehicles, which HMVs are not.

As I understand it, pre-'68 vehicles, ex-military vehicles, and vehicles imported over 25yrs. old are already exempted from FMVSS requirements. No?

Pre-'68 vehicles are exempted because the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards first took effect Jan. 1, 1968 (actually, the first was in Mar. 1967, but the majority took effect 1/1/68).

Ex-military vehicles are exempted by 1994 NHTSA letter of interpretation to John Tolliday http://isearch.nhtsa.gov/gm/94/nht94-1.78.html

Vehicles imported over 25 yrs. old are exempted by NHTSA and Title 49 U.S. Code.

As I see it, Wisconsin law simply needs to be clarified to guarantee WisDOT recognition of these 3 federal exemptions.

Paul

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Post by JAB » Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:12 pm

Hi Paul,

I'm a different Jeff than Jeff Rowsam. That Jeff is not a jeep guy so he doesn't frequent the G too often. I'm a BOD member of the MMVA & have just been a conduit for info from him when he e-mails the various HMV colletor groups, including the MMVA BOD members. Sorry about the confusion. I have all of Jeff's contact info at home & doubt that he'd mind if I'd forward it to you as a PM.
-Jeff

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undysworld
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Post by undysworld » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:05 am

A quick update:

Since my court victory, most Wisconsin Pinzgauers have been registered.

However, there are 2 new purchasers of Pinzgauers here in Wisconsin who have not been able to title/register their trucks.

WisDOT is requiring an Entry Summary, the Bill of Lading, a Letter of Release from the US DOT/NHTSA, and a Letter of Release from the US EPA before they will accept these guys' VALID TITLES from other states (ID and AZ)!!

Never mind the fact that our Constitution requires each state to recognize the public records, etc. of the other states!

Do YOU have letters from DOT/NHTSA? Of course not. Yet your trucks do not meet NHTSA safety standards either, in all likelyhood.

Wisconsin DOT is dead-set on outlawing ex-military vehicles, and they're doing everything they can to set the precedent. As I've said before, once they set a precedent, it's as good as law (Schoolways v. DMV '75).

Hey Wisconsin HMV owners!! Call/Write your Senators and Representatives and the DOT and tell them that this harrassment of Pinzgauers is being done unfairly and without statutory authority. WisDOT must be made to stop targeting ex-military vehicles.

I won one battle, but thie war is still on.

undysworld
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Post by undysworld » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:27 pm

This is, I hope, my last post on this thread.

The last of the Wisconsin Pinzgauer owners have now received their titles/license plates.

Since the appeal, WisDOT has:
Reissued titles/plates on previously registered Pinzgauers.
Issued titles/plates on Pinzgauers newly (legally) imported from overseas.
Issued titles/plates with only a previous out-of-state title.

If anyone is having problems obtaining title/plates for a Pinzgauer in Wisconsin, please don't hesitate to get in contact with me. I'll do what I can to help you out.

Paul Underwood
Blue Mounds, Wis.

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Thanks

Post by Kevin Lockwood » Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:53 am

Thanks to all of you in Wisconsin! Congratulations!
Kansas now Wisconsin, I wonder where the next battle will be?????
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42 Oshkosh AAF Snowblower
41 White M2 halftrack
42 Autocar M2A1 was M2 halftrack
42 Autocar M3-75 halftrack
42 White M4A1 was M4 halftrack
43 Diamond T M3A1 halftrack
43 White M16 was M13 halftrack
44 LVT-3 Landing Vehicle Tracked

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Post by gerrykan » Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:16 pm

I also want to thank all who played a part in this.
As halftrackm2a1 stated "I wonder where the next battle will be?????".
Roy

undysworld
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Re: Wisconsin banning military vehicles?

Post by undysworld » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:46 am

OK, quick update.

WisDOT is again banning Pinzgauers from title/registration, and citing the same statute as previously: s.341.10(6), Wis. Stats. But they are only now seeking the legal authority to be able to do this. Unbelievable. Read on please:

Attention ALL Wisconsin Residents

As you're probably aware, Wisconsin Dept. of Transportation (WisDOT) is seeking additional authority to inspect many older vehicles, such as pre-1968, ex-U.S. Military, and imported vehicles.

A copy of the proposed rule is available here: Trans 123 Public Hearing - 29 July 2009 | http://www.wisconsin-pinzgauers.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[The Pinzgauer website was created after WisDOT cancelled the titles and registration of all the Pinzgauers in Wisconsin (some had been registered for over 7 years!). I appealed the cancellation, won the case, and WisDOT reregistered all Pinzgauers]

The next step is for the proposal to be presented to the Wis. Senate and Assembly committees. Unless they act on the proposal within 30 days, the proposal automatically takes effect.

It will be critical for Wisconsin residents to contact their elected officials and support, or object to, Trans 123 within that time.

We are currently working to set up a website page to allow Wisconsin residents to register to be notified when the proposal reaches the committees.

Remember, it is possible that WisDOT may change this proposal to make it acceptable. Let's hope so.

Questions and Comments invited.

Thanks,
Paul Underwood
1966 AM-General M35A-2
1973 DeTomaso Pantera
1976 Steyr-Puch Pinzgauer 712M
M-416 Trailer (behind Pinzgauer)
1980 AMC Jeep CJ-5

Info on Legislation at: http://www.alfaheaven.com/MilitarySecti ... Legis.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

undysworld
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Re: Wisconsin banning military vehicles?

Post by undysworld » Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:25 am

Hi All,

Another update:

As of last Friday, I got word that another Wisconsin Pinzgauer owner has filed an appeal with the Wis. Dept. of Admin. Div. of Hearings and Appeals.
He was recently denied title and registration for his 3rd Pinzgauer. Mind you, he registered his first one years ago (before DMV cancelled any of our titles), and never had his title and registration cancelled during our "Troubles". They even re-registered it during that time! He registered his second truck in November, 2008 (after my appeal). Now DMV's refusing to title his third Pinzgauer. (He buys them and restores them to, hopefully, sell again.)

Our web page is up and active:

http://www.wisconsin-pinzgauers.org/?q=node/26" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you register your name, etc. (full address is optional), we will notify you when Trans 123 is sent to the Committees (Senate and Assembly).

We will:

1) Identify the Committees which will review the proposal, and their members. (Remember, this might not be the Transportation Committees.)

2) Review the version of Trans 123 which is presented to committee. (DOT is presumeably editing it in response to public comments.)

3) Provide you with the current version of Trans 123.

4) Provide you with our recommendation to either support or object to the proposal, and our reasons.

5) Provide you with your Senator and Assembly Representative's contact information.

As always, if you've got questions, etc., feel free to let me know.

Thanks,
Paul Underwood
1966 AM-General M35A-2
1973 DeTomaso Pantera
1976 Steyr-Puch Pinzgauer 712M
M-416 Trailer (behind Pinzgauer)
1980 AMC Jeep CJ-5

Info on Legislation at: http://www.alfaheaven.com/MilitarySecti ... Legis.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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