help identify specific shade(s) of USMC paint

1952 - 1968, M38A1, M170, questions, discussions, regarding anything related to the M38a1 series.
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Jamey Williams
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help identify specific shade(s) of USMC paint

Post by Jamey Williams » Sun Mar 12, 2006 3:11 pm

Well, it is coming time to pick the shade of paint I want on my M38A1. I think I have found a few appealing shades, but 3 pictures of vehicles with these similar shades are in magazines. So, if any members with experience in USMC paint would not mind looking in their magazines for me it would be greatly appreciated. I want to know if this color is best simlated with Gillespie or Aervoe paints and which color.

Military Vehicles Magazine, Issue #94, December 2002: The cover photo of an USMC IH truck. The caption lists this paint as Aervoe 34052. I had one can of 34052. I sprayed a pioneer shovel with and it was a much brighter green than this cover truck. Maybe I had an "odd" can of paint.

Army Motors #99, pg 36: Shows a post card of Lloyd White's WWII MB, and above it a very similar, slightly glossy, M38A1. Both are USMC.

Army Motors #73: Cover photo of Lloyd White's USMC jeep. This same issue talks about (on page 39, 2nd column) the WWII USMC color was #317. Does any one make a similar color to this 317. I have yet to see 317 listed anywhere, only 319

A similar color on the net: http://www.garbee.net/~cabell/december/ ... %20017.jpg

http://www.garbee.net/~cabell/december/ ... tday19.jpg

I hope this request is simple enough. I like this color and I want to find out what color(s) are most similar to them. I appreciate the effort of any members looking thru their magazine collecxtions and giving me some info on the colors. Thank you,
Jamey Williams
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blackdog
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Post by blackdog » Sun Mar 12, 2006 5:19 pm

Get 24052 (semi gloss) or 34052 (flat) from Gillespie... Rapco sells gallon and spray cans.

It goes on and stays very light for a while but eventually it darkens to a nice deep green color like in those photos...

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Post by Mark Tombleson » Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:32 pm

Jamey, photographs are deceiving.

I painted my MZ-1 with mix of lusterless USMC 34052 from Gillespie and ICI Black Swan to match a preserved spot of original paint on my frame, which is the WO-A-3266 noted in AM#73.

In this photo dark.
Image

This one mottled.
Image

This looks more leafy green and semi gloss.
Image

I have never seen any documentation on the Marine Corps #317? I will have to ask Lloyd about it.

Here is an answer I have posted before.

There are two specifications discussed on WWII paint used on Navy and USMC jeeps.

One is the factory contract jeep color, WO-A-3266 Enamel, Lusterless Forest Green, synthetic.
The other is MC #23 green used for field painting everything.

Cliff Tebeau of Washington who was a technical advisor for the MVPA on items Navy for years, claimed to have a government color chart with the two colors on it. These two paint colors are very close, with the forest green a little brighter green, but both looking almost black in shade.

My opinion is the Marine Corps. #23 green is the paint color that ended up in the following specification.

If we go by the article written by Walter Terzano & etal on USMC Vehicle Markings in Military Magazine some years back--this is what he says is used. It should be noted that there were no references giving in the article on were he got his information.

For FS 24052 Semi-Gloss Forest Green------FS 23538 Semi-Gloss Yellow

For FS 34052 Lusterless Forest Green--------FS 33538 Lusterless Yellow

All American Wonder number one and two lists the Ditzler (PPG) number, which they say is the correct color, as 40458 USMC green and 81958 USMC Yellow for the marking paint on pages 94 and 225.

The only difference from WWII up thru the 1950s is not color but if semi gloss or lusterless was used. This was based on the jeeps use. Tactical was lusterless. Administrative was semi gloss. I have heard of jeeps with gloss paint used for administrative uses also.


So, afer all this I'm going to agree with Brian and say paint it with Gillespie paint you can buy at Rapco. :D
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Post by CGarbee » Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:22 am

Since you have a couple of photos of my M37 shown in your post...
I used Gillespie USMC Lusterless Forest Green (34052) from RAPCO thinned with Xylene... A complete write up of my painting experience on that particular USMC vehicle is located at: http://www.garbee.net/~cabell/paint.htm

My '51 M38 is painted the same...

Good luck,
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1953 M37 with Cummins 4BT
1963 XM708
1951 and 1952 M38's
1971 XM813, 1973 M817, 1971 M816
1968 M274A5
1/4, 3/4, 5t trailers...

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Post by avlon01 » Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:25 am

Here are two pictures from my 1952 USMC M38A1 before restoration started.


This picture is where the Dataplates were mounted. The paint shown was painted over OD.
Image


the next is where the spare tire carrier was. Again, this paint matched the paint under the dataplates, and was painted over OD.
Image


When I was stripping the Jeep, the Marine Corps green in those two spots matched the paint under the red and white. It was consistent throughout the entire Jeep.

I am using Aervoe USMC Forest Green to match the color. It went on dark green, but after some use and time in the sun, it matched the color shown almost exactly.

Phil
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Jamey Williams
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Post by Jamey Williams » Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:59 pm

Mark, thanks for the great pics.
"Jamey, photographs are deceiving. " you are not kidding. I can now see the difference lighting makes with your series of pictures.
I wonder though, if the International cover truck in Mil. Veh. magazine is a darker, custom mix, of the 34052. I do believe you that lighting makes a difference but that cover pic on issue 94 looks as though it was shot in bright sunlight, and the truck looks pretty dark (which I like).

You mention that you "painted [your] MZ-1 with mix of lusterless USMC 34052 from Gillespie and ICI Black Swan" I am interested in darkening my paint a little. Do you recall how much you tinted your paint? Was the result a subtle change or pronounced. I realize this is a subjective assesment.
I did follow your and Blackdog's advice and placed an order for Gilepssie 34052 and 24052 from RAPCO. I ordered a few spray cans. I have a large collection of spray can varations on OD and I will paint them on a sheet of metal and post here in the near future.

Mark, as far as the #317 paint, here is a qoute from the issue sited in my first post: "The W.O. part number for the paint was A-3266-N, and it was called Forest Green Synthetic Enamel, Government Spec. 474-C, which was probably the same color we refer to today as the WWII Marine Corps color #317." Same paint you mentioned in your post? I am not a historian. This is just what I read and am reciting it here. I was wondering if anyone is familiar with this paint, and if it is today's 34052.

CGarbee, thanks for forgiving :oops: me for stealing you pictures. I think you M37 looks great. I am glad to have a USMC vehicle, and like their color(s) alot. The color(s) all look great.

avlon01: This is the same senario as my jeep. Glossier OD under a flat, very faded USMC paint.
Thanks again for the pics and help from everyone. Mark, I will be interested in your reply on the mix of your paint.
Jamey Williams
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Mark Tombleson
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Post by Mark Tombleson » Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:40 pm

I used two gallons of 34052 from Gillespie and one gallon of compatable Dupont synthetic enamel, Jamey. I use several different reducers that are mostly xylene, depending on the weather.

As far as WO-A-3266 Enamel, Lusterless Forest Green, synthetic, once again this is a factory paint used only for the Navy/USMC contract jeeps during WWII. The frame/body/drive train was painted with this paint directly over the primer.

The difference in color is so slight I will have to point it out to you. In the the third photo the shovel and dual tire fenders, which would have been painted in the field, are 34052 from Gillespie only. The straight 34052 is slightly darker and less leafy green.

I do not recommend using the mix for your M38A1... I just wanted to show you how photos may not be the best way to match paint. :wink:
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Jamey Williams
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Post by Jamey Williams » Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:56 pm

Mark, again great info. I did notice the difference in color between the fenders, etc., but assumed it was the angle of the light. After seeing the difference and understanding you, I am going straight gilepssie 34052, so that I get the shade you have on the fenders and shovel.

Thanks a lot!
Jamey Williams
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DJ
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Painting

Post by DJ » Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:13 pm

All this talk by experienced painters got me thinking, Is it as cold where you guys are as it is here? If so how do you heat the shop when you paint. I have a wood burning furnace in mine ,but am reluctant to do much painting. What are your thoughts and experiences on painting in a building with a open flame?

Thanks

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Post by Jamey Williams » Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:13 pm

DJ, I was reluctant about that too, when I lived in a frigid part of Idaho. I would only use water based finishes on my wood working projects. I was concerned as you are. Maybe someone else has some successful experiences.
Jamey Williams
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Post by Mark Tombleson » Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:42 pm

I don't know about paint with a flame near by... I would not do it myself.

Here is one of the product I use, the Zephyr specifically goes down to 40 degrees. I don't paint lower that that.

Nason®441-02™ Zephyr Fast (40-60°F)

Nason®441-00™ Multi-Weather Med (60-85°F)

Nason®441-01™ Hi-Temp Slow (75-100°F)

Oh, it may be wise to familiarize yourself with the flash point of some common fuels and solvents.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/flash ... d_937.html

Xylene is 63 degrees
Gasoline is minus 45.
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M38A1 USMC Paint

Post by Fred Jones » Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:48 am

I hope this helps:

I'll start from the purist viewpoint and let you decide which way to go with it.

From what I have been able to figure out about Marine Corps jeeps, your first thing to do is to determine what kind of vehicle you actually have in regard to original paint schemes. It's one of three possibilities. I can't recall the actual terms so lets call them 1) combat jeeps, 2) utility jeeps and 3) administration jeeps.

The combat jeeps would have had lusterless Marine Corps green paint. The utility jeeps would have had semi-gloss Marine Corps green paint and the adminstration jeeps would of had gloss Marine Corps green paint.

These are not hard and fast rules except for the combat jeeps. It is my understanding that only combat jeeps in the Marine Corps were ever painted in lusterless paint. Also, it is not that common to find a genuine lusterless USMC combat jeep as most M38A1's were painted in utility and administration versions of Marine Corps green. The combat jeeps in the Marines were purpose built for a mission or function and were thus fewer in number.

Next, is your vehicle a combat jeep? Some of the clues I have seen are the following: obviously, is there original lusterless paint somewhere on the vehicle?, is the hood cut out missing? - If so, look for holes drilled into the hood near the cut out and 2 holes in the right rear panel at the top next to the body seam. If you find these holes it means a snorkel and tailpipe extension were added as a field modification. As far as I know this was only done for combat vehicles. Also, does your jeep have the venting system? Was it fully enclosed with side curtains and doors? The combat jeeps I have seen had the venting system but no side curtains or doors.

If the venting system and snorkel drill holes are not there then it would have been probably a utility jeep or an administration jeep.

I found Gillispie's 34052 to be almost a perfect match for the lusterless. It also gets darker over time so don't be surprised.

I have been told that most of the M38A1 jeeps in the Marines were painted in semi-gloss Marine Corps green with those used in parades and office work occassionally being painted with gloss Marine Corps green.

Also, Marine Corps jeeps had few if any markings other than USMC and the hood number. I have seen two sizes of stencils for markings. The markings are done in a variation of what is called chrome yellow. There are several chrome yellows. If you call Norfolk Paint in Norfolk, Virginia and ask for their military paint division they can probably help you with the correct stencil color.

And to further mix things up I have a picture from the mid '50's of USMC M38A1's in what appears to be multi - color desert camo with black stencils! What mission were they prepaired to go too?

Like I said these are not hard and fast rules, if you look long enough you could probably find a glossy jeep with a snorkel.

But, if you ever meet a Marine who drove one, at least it will look right.

Good Luck with your jeep!

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Re: help identify specific shade(s) of USMC paint

Post by MB-SlatBob » Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:25 pm

I have some personal experience with Marine Corps Green pain on vehicles, having served in the First Marine Division at Camp Pendleton and the Third Marine Division on Okinawa, in the early 60s, then in Vietnam.
So-- from reading through so many threads on paint, I guess my best recommendation would be to say, Do Not Overthink the Paint. Just get good paint and paint it. Marine Corps Green was created to look different in different lights, deliberately to confuse the enemy with shadow, and now it confuses us. I have been to our largest supply base, Barstow, and saw their painting operation. We used Ditzler and Gillespie, and one other, and the colors differed at times based on the Navy/Marine Corps requisitioning system. I do remember 34052 and also a now-canceled color, 34087 as being used at that time. During most of WWI, the old-timers told me that the last thing they were worried about was paint, they were just darn glad to get a vehicle, and colors ranged from doggie brown to leafy green, particularly on the early operations such as the Solomons and New Georgia. Beginning in late 1944, things became more standard, with even tac marks by division, particularly the Fourth and Fifth.
On Okinawa in 1962, we had a 1948 Dodge Power Wagon that was in it's original (same WWII) paint, but-- the division struck the vehicle from the inventory, painted it semi-gloss (same color), and babied it for years as something of a mascot. That was something they could not get away with in the States.
The "Administrative vs, Combat" Jeeps "policy" is something of a myth. It has never been official practice. Some Division Commanders might have allowed it, but for example, Major General James Masters was irate when they painted his jeep semi-gloss "to make it look nice" and really blistered the Division Motor T for it. The Marine Corps has never been rich, and everything they have is considered a "combat vehicle, except sedans, and they are semi-gloss.
I'm just passing my experience for historical notes, and I'm not trying to convince anyone one way or another, but I hope some of this helps.


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