Position of Hood Registration Numbers

1952 - 1968, M38A1, M170, questions, discussions, regarding anything related to the M38a1 series.
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Sarah
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Position of Hood Registration Numbers

Post by Sarah » Thu May 07, 2009 3:15 pm

Hi Guys,

When the Registration Numbers are positioned on the right hand side of the Hood, do they go over the triangular panel for the snorkel or over the top of it.

We will be trying to date the Jeep for 1965, with 20" star on the hood, 6" stars elsewhere.


Many thanks,

Sarah


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Re: Position of Hood Registration Numbers

Post by Cuz » Thu May 07, 2009 3:55 pm

Here are a few period photos:

Image
From http://www.m38a1.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; 1957

Image
From http://www.m38a1.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; 1957
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Re: Position of Hood Registration Numbers

Post by Joe Gopan » Thu May 07, 2009 6:52 pm

When the M-38A1 left the factory, the numbers and letters were 2". U.S.A was used, as U.S. ARMY did not come into effect until around early 1957. The bottom of the registration number was at the at the upper level of the hood cut out. The U.S.A. had square periods and was centered 1" above the numbers.
The entire registration was centered on the side of the hood. Remember when centering the U.S.A. the period to the right of the A is part of the measurement.
The drivers side is in the same location.

Normally the registration numbers start 1" up from the bottom of the hood. Those on the M-38A1 did not.
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Re: Position of Hood Registration Numbers

Post by Cuz » Thu May 07, 2009 9:09 pm

As Joel mentions above the original Willys and Kaiser painted numbers were high on the hood in 2" characters.

Image
Image

In these two 1963 photos you can see how the Army repainted the hood numbers in the field.

Image
In this early 60's photo you can see another way some units painted the new arrangement in the field.

Image
Here you can see that the numeral 2 covers the snorkel panel in this late 50's shot and they are NOT centered between the front and rear edges of the hood.

The point I am making is even with a regulation and 4 or 5 TB's and TM's specifying how to do it the many different interpretations are to say the least interesting.
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Re: Position of Hood Registration Numbers

Post by Joe Gopan » Fri May 08, 2009 3:39 am

It's been a while since I have seen the regulations, they did not refer to original factory placement of M-38A1 markings.
The MVPA Army Motors of the 70s had many good articles on vehicle markings. They will be listed in the Army Motors Index. Many of those articles were published when the vehicles were still in the system.
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Re: Position of Hood Registration Numbers

Post by Cuz » Fri May 08, 2009 5:51 am

All of the necessary regulations, TB's and TM's are available from Portrayal Press and even for free download on several of the web sites.

To give you an idea of how many and how often they changed here's a brief list and their effective dates for the US Army: (C=an add on Change to the basic publication)

AR850-5 dated August 1942 (C1Aug 42, C2 OCT 42, C3 NOV 43, C4 DEC 42, C5 DEC 42, C6 MAR 43, C7 JUN 43, C8 OCT 43, C9 JAN 44, C10 MAR 44.

Circular No. 261 War Dept 1944.

Circular No, 164 War Dept Sep 1945

Circular No. 315 War Dept. 1945

AR850-5 dated February 1945 (C1 MAY45, C2 SEP 45, C3 FEB 46, C4 MAY46, C5 JAN 48, C-6 JAN 49)

TB ORD OCT 1957

TB ORD 2300-10/1 APR 1958

TB 9-263 APR 1959

TB ORD 677 JUL 1962

TB ORD 1058 JUN 1963

TB 746-93-1 October 1964

The MV Hobby seems to have settled on three of the above publications to govern the hobby.

AR 850-5 Dated August 1942 with changes thru MAR 1944 for WWII markings. AR 850-5 dated FEB 1945 thru changes to JAN 1949 for post WWI thru the early 60's. TB 746-93-1 for the 60's thru early 70's.

These pubs offer guidance in a very generalized form. They force the painter to use a little common sense. The date frame you are most interested in is best covered in the TB 746-93-1/ This is available complete on the UK radio web site: http://www.armyradio.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; The AR850-5 dated Feb 45 was the guidance used by the Willys and Kaiser factory during M38, M38A1 and M170 production.

These two pages are the introduction and basics pages.

Image
This page explains the basics

Image
This page explains the basic mechanics of forming the markings.

Image
This is the style characters required by the TB.

Here are the hood number pages:

Image
Par 7c. (1) applies to the 1/4 ton jeep. US Army marking and Par 8a, & b starting on this photo and continued on the next photo apply to the registration number on the jeep.

Image
This is the rest of Par 8a, b for the hood number.

Image
This is the illustration referred to above.

Since the new format on this web site restricts photo size you can view them more easily on my web site: http://mvpaintmarkings.mypicgallery.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Position of Hood Registration Numbers

Post by Joe Gopan » Fri May 08, 2009 6:14 am

I prefer the factory application for the M-38A1 as it is unique. Many of the National Guard Support shops took care to reapply the markings in the factory manner. This could be evidenced in the 100s of surplus m-38 Series jeeeps that were offered in the 60s-70s. I have noted USA Registrations on M-38A1 repaints that were done in 2" and 3" font, and a few in 4" over the years at various military posts in the 50s-70s.
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Re: Position of Hood Registration Numbers

Post by Sarah » Mon May 11, 2009 3:41 am

Hi Guys,

Many thanks for your help, have managed to get a copy of TB 746-93-1 and I'll do the lettering in 3" text with 2" spacing and 2" from the bottom of the Hood.

For a M38A1 that was still around in the mid-sixties M38A1, I presume the Registration Number would have more digits than an early fifties one.

Would a seven of eight digit Registration Number be a good representation for the mid sixties? Our Jeep was a 1957 Dutch NEKAF Jeep, but all the Dutch modifications have been removed and all the holes are being welded up. So after the welding and respraying we are trying to give it a mid-sixties identity.

I appreciate you help.

Regards,

Sarah

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Re: Position of Hood Registration Numbers

Post by Cuz » Mon May 11, 2009 6:44 am

Hello Sarah,

The short answer to your question is the hood number your A1 recieved at the Willys factory is the same hood number it had it's entire life if it remianed in the US Army.

The registration numbers (Hood numbers) were assigned to an entire contract batch of M38A1's by the Army. The Willys/Kaiser factory then painted the hood numbers on as they rolled off the assembly line. Since the jeeps did not roll off the line in exact serial number sequence the hood number were not applied in serial sequence either. But the hood numbers were assigned that date. That hood number followed the jeep to it's grave unless the USMC or USAF or Navy acquired the jeep from the Army then they would apply their own registration numbers using their numbering system. The hood numbers were in the 8 digit category until 1953 then the 9 digits untill late 54 or early 55 when they switched to the 2AXXXX system.

If your A1 came to you with no evidence of it's original hood number on it then you should use the first 3 or 4 digits of a period correct number and then fill the remaining digits with your A1's serial number. This way in the future when a researcher is looking at your number it will be obvious it is a contrived number and should not be used since it would skewer his computations. You can determine at least the first 3 digits from your serial number and date of delivery.
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Re: Position of Hood Registration Numbers

Post by Joe Gopan » Mon May 11, 2009 7:52 am

The first M-38A1 Jeeps produced in 1952 served untill retired from the US Army in the 70s. The USA number was permanent.
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Re: Position of Hood Registration Numbers

Post by Cuz » Mon May 11, 2009 5:37 pm

The USA number was permanent
As I said above this would be correct so long as the jeep spent it's entire military life in the US Army. Many US Army M38A1's ended up in the USMC in the mid to late 60's where those US Army registration numbers disappeared very quickly.

When MV's are retired by the original service they are not sold by that service to the highest bidder. They are turned over to a nearby DRMO (Defense Reutilization Management Office). Here they are made available to any US Government agency or other US armed service active, reserve and guard. If they can not find a home in one of these federal government agencies then the DRMO makes them available for other governments IE state, county and municipal. If they can't find the jeep a home here they offer them to the public at auction.
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Re: Position of Hood Registration Numbers

Post by Joe Gopan » Mon May 11, 2009 6:40 pm

Some Maine Army National Guard M-38A1Jeeps were shipped to Venezuela in 1970 via DRMO Brunswick NAS.
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Re: Position of Hood Registration Numbers

Post by Sarah » Wed May 13, 2009 7:46 am

Hi Guys,

The chassis number for my Ex-NEKAF (1957) M38A1 is MD14722, with the number on the Patent plate, behind the passenger seat, being 57144 18042.

What would your suggestion be for a nine digit registration number and also a 2Axxxx series registration number.

On a different topic, I've been getting a few panels/covers and bits and pieces together for the refurb/respray. I am amazed at all the different shades of green and the level of matt to shiny all the components are in, but soon they will all be the same :)


Grateful for your help again,

Sarah

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Re: Position of Hood Registration Numbers

Post by Cuz » Wed May 13, 2009 8:53 am

Since your Nekaf is a 1956 Dutch Army unit it would have a 1956 Dutch Army hood number. There is currently no evidence that the US Army took delivery on any M38A1's in 1956 so any attempt by you to use a US Army hood number would be to simply replicate a US M38A1. The last US Army 2A number in the 1955 data base is 2A7259 and the 57 thru 1960 data bases show only NEKAF, Dane, Argentinian, USMC and USN units.
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Re: Position of Hood Registration Numbers

Post by Sarah » Wed May 13, 2009 12:01 pm

Hi Cuz,

As the vast majority of M38A1's in England are ex-NEKAF, we wanted to be a bit different and revert it back to a US Army look. We have removed all the NEKAF mod's and are in the process of getting all the fixing holes welded up. The only NEKAF bit we are keeping is the isolation switch on the rhs of the dash. That's why we are after an appropriate US Army Registration.


Regards,

Sarah


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