INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

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Joe Gopan
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INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

Post by Joe Gopan » Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:09 am

Has anyone been successful at indexing the Preformed Victor Rear Main Seal in your Jeep engine? It appears difficult. Can it be done without ruining the seal?
This technique has been suggested in past posts, am curious to hear from those who have successfully tried out the idea.
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
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Re: INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

Post by artificer » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:22 am

Joel offsetting is not an idea or something new.
I for one have often suggested this method be used, explained how & why...
It is done by many who actually practice the trade....with good reason....not sure about it's applicability to the problematic "Wicktor" seals though.
G contributor & renowned tradesman from Nuu Joosie, we haven't heard from in a long time, Pete (of Dolittle & Sitmore fame) is another promoting practitioner (not a numbers man though).
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

Post by Joe Gopan » Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:00 am

It is not a solution on the 134 Cu/in Jeep Engine, I have not tried it but predict it will not work using the Problem Steel Backed Molded Lip Seal.
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
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Re: INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

Post by artificer » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:21 pm

If the Victor seals were good of course offsetting would work fine & there would be no reason whatsoever not to do so.
BTW....I opened a new engine gasket set yesterday marked ROL gaskets FS32390 (replaces #17440.01) & it contained the reported "BAD" seals with 1 short length of the woven material not long enough to do anything @ the rear even if cut in half.
I notice some firms have removed the engine oil seals from their kits altogether.
There must be growing liability concerns?
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

Post by Joe Gopan » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:21 pm

I've been trying to warn people of the 800093 seal problem for a few years. No one wants to take responsibility for this, starting with the manufacturer. Felpro and Victor have been aware of this for over 10 years and keep flooding the market with flawed seals. Victor customer service blamed it on the Military engine blocks as they are different than civilian. This is not a simple case of installing them wrong as Jeep mechanics and automotive machine shops had no problems prior to the bad run of seals for the previous half century.
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
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Re: INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

Post by artificer » Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:38 pm

Joel said: This is not a simple case of installing them wrong as Jeep mechanics and automotive machine shops had no problems prior to the bad run of seals for the previous half century.
I don't know what is so special about Jeep mechanics over good all round experienced mechanics?
Any mechanic worth his salt should be able to tell when fitting up a bad seal that things are just not right, instead of going ahead then their customer having a failure....
Some unfortunately are despicable in trying to blame the customer for their bad/faulty workmanship.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

Joe Gopan
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Re: INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

Post by Joe Gopan » Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:45 pm

Many Jeep owners have discovered that all repair shops are not created equal and that mechanics having Jeep experience will yield better and longer lasting repairs.
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
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Re: INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

Post by Cuz » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:09 pm

Joel said: Many Jeep owners have discovered that all repair shops are not created equal and that mechanics having Jeep experience will yield better and longer lasting repairs.
Every brand's group of mechanics has it's fair share of great mechanics and poor mechanics. So in reality a jeep owner can also find better and longer lasting repairs at some of the other mechanic shops as well and on the flip side there will be some shoddy jeep experienced mechanics out there somewhere who can do worse and not so long lasting repairs.

I only bring this up because the statement quoted above leads one to believe that only a jeep experienced mechanic can produce better and longer lasting repairs when we all know that others can do this as well. Had the quoted statement been more believable by saying something like this:
Many Jeep owners have discovered that all repair shops are not created equal and that mechanics having Jeep experience will often yield better and longer lasting repairs. :wink: :wink: :wink:
Cuz (AKA Wes K)
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Re: INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

Post by Joe Gopan » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:18 pm

Some Jeep owners will learn the hard way that good Jeep mechanics are priceless.
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
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Re: INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

Post by Cuz » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:25 pm

And a few will learn that a bad jeep mechanic just like any make bad mechanic will cost them dearly. :wink: :wink: :wink:
Cuz (AKA Wes K)
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Re: INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

Post by Joe Gopan » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:28 pm

I stand by my comment, have witnessed good and bad Jeep repairs for over 6 decades.
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
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Re: INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

Post by artificer » Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:32 am

By now we must all be choking a this big cloud of absolute Bull Dust....
Wes is right there are good & bad mechanics out there plus lots of wannabee hobbyists who believe assembling a few specialist brand engines or transmissions relegates them to being Jeep or Studebaker of REO or IH expert mechanics.
In the real world (outside Joel's 60 years ago Army) it just doesn't work like that & is why folk learn & become proficient in a "broad" all encompassing trade such as "Motor Mechanic".....
The king is still racking up those numbers though....14,000 then 20,000 coming up....
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

Joe Gopan
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Re: INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

Post by Joe Gopan » Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:58 am

There are few mechanics still in business that were working on Jeeps when they were a common site on the roads and in shops everywhere. Gone is the day when the mechanic or Jeep owner could go to the local surplus dealer or JAuthorized Jeep Factory Dealer and purchase NOS parts from countermen that whould make sure that the buyer left the premises with 100% one stop shopping. Garages and Jeep dealers everywhere had mechanics fresh from WWII with plenty of bumper to bumper hands on Jeep experience, many parts room employees were veterans that had experience in handling Jeep parts. The 40's thru early 60's are long gone, so are most of the original parts and old time Jeep mechanics that could instantly recognize and zero in on the fault part or symptom.
What we are seeing here are some with minimal Jeep background critical of those who diagnose jeep problems from experience, with the belief that only those with modern diagnostics displayed on their shingle are capable of the most efficient method of repair.
Remember, the Jeep is only one step away from the horse and buggy, it is simple to repair, those who learned to repair them during WWII and in the Army of the 50's and used that experience in civilian life practiced Jeep repair that was reliable and permanent.
Flashing pages from manuals without hands on advice does little to solve the Jeep repair problem,the best advice comes from those who can talk a person thru the repair from experience.
A good example is the suggestion to "index" the rear main seal as if it had been done before, now we are finding out that it was only a suggestion and has not been tried on a Jeep engine.
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
7 MIL SPEC MAINTAINED MV'S
COL. BRUNO BROOKS (ARMY MOTORS) IS MY HERO

Joe Gopan
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Re: INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

Post by Joe Gopan » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:18 am

Still mlooking for anyone who has successfully "indexed" the 800093 molded seal.
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
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Re: INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

Post by artificer » Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:32 pm

Some people on the G don't sleep in surplus store olive drab underwear, eat C rations in preference to real food & get off on the smell of cosmoline covered old parts.
Joel said: Remember, the Jeep is only one step away from the horse and buggy....the best advice comes from those who can talk a person thru the repair from experience.
Double dutch Joel.... First you say the Jeep is very simple to work on while all the time implying one needs to be a expert specialist US Army honor graduate type to work on them.
Now here are a few of many who are, IMHO able to offer extremely insightful suggestions & who are not US Army honor graduate types....Alasdair Brass, Marty, Tony Norton, Pete Silfven, Ian Jamieson a quite a few others.
Joel offers without foundation: A good example is the suggestion to "index" the rear main seal as if it had been done before, now we are finding out that it was only a suggestion and has not been tried on a Jeep engine.

As for one of the other stupidities:
Why would people be indexing bad seals because it is not going to make them better? That being said if a two piece replaceable seal can be indexed I for one have nearly always done & will continue to do so.
Some of us are hands on real tradesmen who have progressed past the 1950's/60's who have learned, taught others & kept learning along the way.

You have so much NOS stuff in the bedroom cupboard & the permanently snowed in shed there must be some of those "pre bad type" seals....why not fit one up, see how easily it is done rather than asking a group of primarily hobbyists if they have done so? These guys are just not of your calibre but with enough controversy will help get your tally through the roof! Change comes harder for some old timers than others, so keep persevering.

If anyone else wants to know more on indexing search Pete Silfven's posts (also covered in a few of my old ones as well).
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.


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