INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

1950 - 1952, M38, questions, discussions, regarding anything related to the M38.
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Re: INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

Post by Joe Gopan » Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:31 pm

John, it is you who have suggested the indexing and you display an impressive shingle, no need to refer the idea to anyone else as it is your idea. You alone have remarked that you can install these seals without the problem other are having. Am hoping someone has successfully tried your fix. I do not believe it can be done with the Victor molded seal that is giving fits to Jeep mechanics.
I tried a couple of the bad Victor Seals in my M-38A1 only to have them fail on start up. The engine that I majored originally had the Victor 800093 seal installed when the engine was new and gave me 28 years of trouble free service. That same block and crankshaft was reinstalled and first two Victor Seals failed during initial start up. They were fresh stock from Felpro OH Gasket sets I stocked. I dug thru my old left over gasket sets from 40 years ago and installed a seal from old stock, it is working flawlessly.
No need to spend time experimenting with current bad seals, when known good seals from old stock can be installed per the manuals.
Am still positive that the 800093 Victor seal CANNOT be successfully installed using your index method.
Last edited by Joe Gopan on Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

Post by artificer » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:16 pm

Comprehension is not a strong point thats for sure....
Joel said: no need to refer the idea to anyone else as it is your idea
Nothing I have said is my original idea....people & some manufacturer's plus engine machinists, rebuilders etc. advocate & use offsetting or indexing oil seals in OLD engines using 2 piece seals. Newer engines do not in general use 2 piece seals
Joel said: Am hoping someone has successfully tried your fix
Fix for what I never ever said that! What I (& others) have said it is an improvement over the butt join @ the bearing cap to block. That is all.
Joel said: Am still positive that the 800093 Victor seal can be successfully installed using your index method.
As I know it can be done, but one would be stupid to try with "known" faulty seals. The thin French style I have used in 3 engines now all offset or indexed & absolutely no problemos.
Not sure where these good thin section seals can be sourced now maybe Europe?
Knowing this informataion would be more helpful that these self serving threads.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

Post by Joe Gopan » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:46 pm

[quote="artificer"]Comprehension is not a strong point thats for sure....
[quote]Joel said: no need to refer the idea to anyone else as it is your idea[/quote] Nothing I have said is my original idea....people & some manufacturer's plus engine machinists, rebuilders etc. advocate & use offsetting or indexing oil seals in OLD engines using 2 piece seals. Newer engines do not in general use 2 piece seals
[quote]Joel said: Am hoping someone has successfully tried your fix[/quote] Fix for what I never ever said that! What I (& others) have said it is an improvement over the butt join @ the bearing cap to block. That is all.
[quote]Joel said: Am still positive that the 800093 Victor seal can be successfully installed using your index method.[/quote] As I know it can be done, but one would be stupid to try with "known" faulty seals. The thin French style I have used in 3 engines now all offset or indexed & absolutely no problemos.
Not sure where these good thin section seals can be sourced now maybe Europe?
[color=#BF00BF]Knowing this informataion would be more helpful that these self serving threads.[/color][/quote]

Sorry to confuse you, I meant to say the 800093 Victor Seal CANNOT be installed using your method.
John what good is information about nameless thin section French Seals that may not be available anywhere by using your description, and how does one find a vendor who is familiar with the term "V-belt" Seal.
Am sure that current Jeep Parts Dealers will be able offer rear main seals for Jeep that are not manufactured by Victor or Omix Ada.
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Re: INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

Post by artificer » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:55 pm

Again you are confusing people...what is a v belt seal? I have never used that term.
Of course your Wictor or whatever seal you are talking about can be indexed as can all 2 piece ones I've seen other than woven or rope type.
Indexing will not fix the problem you had & fancy one doing the same thing resulting in failure twice!
Am sure that current Jeep Parts Dealers will be able offer rear main seals for Jeep that are not manufactured by Victor or Omix Ada.
Seems to me these dealers are not but that some level oxmix ada kits used to have the narrower French section seal as that is where I got them first.
You are the Jeep Parts guru of the G with connections (something I do not know much about except ordering) so maybe you can establish part number etc. for the unknown seal which is shown in JB's engine repair?
BTW your little Belgian buddy disciple was the first person to describe the seal (which has always been good) as the French Army....implying WOF type.
Maybe he knows where people can get same?
If anyone does the whole problem issue disappears & so will all the bad old stock others are still peddling off to the unsuspecting masses.
Last edited by artificer on Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

Post by Joe Gopan » Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:04 pm

If one goes to Carquest, Big A, or NAPA and asks for a French Section Seal, what can they expect from the counterman?
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Re: INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

Post by artificer » Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:10 pm

Are you trying to get to 14,000 by the end of the week?
One would have every right to ask to view what seal they wanted to purchase @ any counter & also ask is there more than one part number or types of seals for x engine on offer.
Now that would be sensible unlike your silly comeback suggestion/question.
I've switched off this thread. But please let us know when you & Luc can reveal all.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

Post by swampymarsh » Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:56 am

Intresting topic.......Though admittedly still a bit confused. I rebuilt a 46 2A, and twice the rear main siezed up after 10 minutes at normal driving. everything turned perfectly normal by hand after assembly, but finally said f" it after having to pull the engine a third time. Suppose the aforementioned seal is suspect to the problem?

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Re: INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

Post by Joe Gopan » Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:07 am

It would be nice to hear from those who have attempted it or have been successful in Indexing the rear main seal in their Jeep engine. So far no one has reported that they have even attempted it.
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Re: INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

Post by artificer » Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:22 pm

swampymarsh wrote:Interesting topic.......Though admittedly still a bit confused. I rebuilt a 46 2A, and twice the rear main seized up after 10 minutes at normal driving. everything turned perfectly normal by hand after assembly, but finally said f" it after having to pull the engine a third time. Suppose the aforementioned seal is suspect to the problem?
Indexing or offsetting has nothing to do with your problem. PERIOD.
So forget most of the preceding rubbish, in this self serving thread.

Nothing previously said will help solve your ongoing problem.
Just remember there are some who are 'practiced mechanics' & others who know what is in some old book source or they may have learned somewhere 60 years ago on a 3 month crash course.

What I am going to ask & say might very well set you on the right track, instead of up the garden path.

1. You indicated the engine 'turned perfectly normal' after assembly. What exactly do you mean by this?
2. If it means the engine turns smoothly with not too much effort, the seal may not be related to your problem.
3. Where's the pictures or better description of what seal condition you found? It is ominous that it is the rear bearing.
4. It is possible to install main bearing/s incorrectly & block off oil supply.

In some L&F134 Jeep main bearing sets, I have seen, each main bearing's 2 half shells are slightly different.
[a] 1 half has an oil hole drilling that is meant to go toward the mating oil delivery hole in the engine block. [this half has 2 holes 1 for dowel one for oil]
The other half has no oil hole drilling & is meant to go to the bearing cap. [this half has 1 hole for dowel]
Guess what happens when someone gets the two halves wrong way round?
5. You need to re-check & make sure you have the oil holes right & the bearing location dowels correctly in place.

Let others know what you find, answer the question in 1 & posting some pictures would be a good idea.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

Post by FrankenJeep » Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:58 am

Ben Dover wrote:Some Jeep owners will learn the hard way that good Jeep mechanics are priceless.
Yeah, including ME! No "jeep" mechanic found the problem I had with unreliable starting/running, but an old farmer/Ford tractor owner with a so-called
"shade tree" knowledge of engines who came over one day and spotted the problem within seconds of eyeballing it! This after having spent I-don't-know-how-much in time, $$, and literally years trying to fix it. Right now, I can go out in the garage, hit the starter and "Willis" will awaken with no hesitation.
So much for who is an "expert"! :oops: :lol: :lol: It's RESULTS that counts!!!

FJ
FrankenJeep

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Re: INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

Post by Bob Bell » Sat Sep 03, 2022 1:39 pm

Please define 'indexing'.
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Re: INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

Post by Wolfman » Mon Sep 05, 2022 4:07 am

Most people put the rear main seal so the edges of the upper and lower halves of the seal is flush with the block and main bearing cap.
When the seal is "indexed", the seal halves are rotated slightly so the edges of the seal halves do not align with the seam between the main bearing cap and block. This is suppose to prevent a straight gap through seam for an oil leak.
Not too hard to do with a rubber lip seal. A little trickier with a rope seal.
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Re: INDEXING REAR MAIN SEAL

Post by Bob Bell » Mon Sep 05, 2022 8:24 am

Thanks Mike
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1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.


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