Differences GPW,GB,M201 - my observations

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Differences GPW,GB,M201 - my observations

Post by bigfeet » Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:14 am

Hi everyone,

My first post, I hope this is the right discussion page (I will also post in the M201 page as well) but I thought I really need some knowledge from GPW, MB Restorers/Owners so thought this page might be the best place.

I own an early M201 Hotchkiss, firstly I know this is discussed a lot and I have been through all the sites online that list the differences between the GPW, MB and M201 but I am left with a few questions.

I know my jeep will always be a "Salad Jeep" but I have got rather addicted to looking for wartime parts on my Jeep, I find it fascinating that it retains any original parts from WW2. It came in direct from France and I had it registered here in the UK around 2010 and it is currently painted with an RAF Roundel and is called Lizzie (named after my wife as I purchased the jeep 2 weeks before getting married!).

Anyway, I have discovered so far it retains a GPW rear axle, a GPW Transmission cover plate, 9 segment bonnet, brake pedal, radiator cap - but what else???

Here are my queries...

1. Like many M201's the tub retains evidence of it being a wartime tub like the floor start being welded up, the rear panel body brace being wartime pattern and a number of other welded up holes and repair sections. Thing is some say it's therefore a "modified wartime tub" but how is this possible if it does not have the famous instrument panel notch and has an M201 tub number stamped just above the fuel filter? Did wartime tubs get cut about i.e a new front section being welded on?? Is there any way of confirming one way or the other? My tub has the M201 reflectors at the rear with 4 holes but only 2 holes are drilled in the tub? surely if it was an M201 tub it would have all four holes drilled to match the M201 reflector? Mine has the angular cowl pillar brace of an M201 and has the ribbed floor panel on the inside of the glove box so what is going on?

2. Seats: The front drivers and passenger seats look identical to GB (The Ford I know is F Marked) thing is I see these for sale stating they are "wartime" but is there anyway of actually telling an M201 seat apart from a GB one?

3. Radiator: Again is there anyway of telling the difference between an M201 and a GB radiator? I believe the GPW was F marked.

There are other points but I think this is probably enough for now!! I told you I was addicted!

Just as a point of interest that doesn't seem to get mentioned is that my hand brake handle is WOF marked on the back, might help people looking for a wartime one.

I will get some pics of what ever is needed to help me make sense of what is what.

Thanks for reading!

Dan


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Re: Differences GPW,GB,M201 - my observations

Post by 70th Division » Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:39 pm

Hello Dan,

First, Welcome to the great G503 !!
Please post pictures of your Jeep here !!

The M201 is a great jeep, a military jeep that also served beside MB and GPW Jeeps, CCKWs and Dodge WC's and Halftracks while in the service of France.
They took great care of all their vehicles, and thanks to them, we have many, many, WW2 vehicles, very abundant today and still in good shape .

Your jeep likely has many US MB, GPW, and Hotchkiss components on it.
Yes, it is very possible that when your jeep was rebuilt, it could have had a new cowl assembly welded onto an older WW2 body. Likely, I don't know.
However, I have a WW2 MB ex French jeep, that has WOF rear wheel wells installed on it.
They did a good job, but you can see they were added, and see some welds as well.
The French also welded up all the original US holes for the first aid kit on the dash, the screw holes for the wood hood blocks, and a few other things.
It has M201 rims, and an M201 windshield as well.
It does have an ACM number stamped on the driver's side body cowl.
Look on your jeep to see if it has an ACM number stamped there.
Also check your frame rail to see if it has any MB frame tag rivet holes still.
(possibly welded up)
You can also tell if you have an MB or an M201 frame by studying the front cross member tube, from below.
The dented in stamping was different between a US MB and an M201.

If you have the original French data plates, see if they list the jeep as an MB, or a VLTT,
jeep. There are many combos that they had, like an ITM jeep, or an original M201 tag.

Mine has the original MB frame, MB engine, US 6V voltage regulator, a West German made VDO speedometer, a push button floor type starter switch on the left dash.
It also has an F script hood, and an F script rear seat.
It was rebuilt by the French in 1962, and still has its original French Army license plate on the rear panel. It was found here as it is, and likely never even used by its US owner, but ended up sitting in a field way out west, until a pipeline worker saw it, and bought it from the owner. Then I bought it :D :D
If you post a picture of your radiator, it can quickly be identified here.
It was also what they call a Command Jeep, that had 2 sets of pedals installed, the extra set being on the passengers side. The holes in the passenger floor confirm that.
Very interesting things can be found on the French jeeps, and the more pictures you post here, the better we can help you identify your jeep.

Please post a picture of your Roundel as well :D :D :D

Best Regards,
Ray

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Re: Differences GPW,GB,M201 - my observations

Post by bigfeet » Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:14 am

Hi Ray,

Brilliant thanks for your in depth reply, I am already learning a thing or two! I know some people hate the French "Salad Jeep" but it is only human nature to be interested in it's history and of course I am pretty sure most M201 owners would love to see wartime parts on their jeeps. For me I am a WW2 history buff, I couldn't afford a genuine all WW2 jeep at the time and I wonder how many new restorations now actually have real "been there" WW2 parts anyway? More and more WOF parts are being used instead of modern repro stuff.

I am pretty sure my chassis is an M201 one, no holes for the data plate and an M201 number stamped on the top of the frame in the drivers side engine bay and also it has the u channels welded in to add strength, I have noticed the Rad mounts are riveted onto the front frame and not welded like many other M201's. Where were First Aid Kits mounted? I have also checked the toe board frame for a stamped number and it appears void of any numbers, is this the cowl you refer to? I am wondering if any of the French tubs have the number stamped there if the notch is missing? in other words, no notch no chance of numbers anyway.

The screw hole for the wooden blocks have been welded up and there are other holes welded up on the tub but I am not sure what they were for originally. There are holes on the floor from the second battery.

I will post some pics a bit later, I went into the garage to take some photos this morning but after weeks of sunshine it is now overcast so my garage was like a black hole!

The data plates are still there but no mention of GB although the engine plate has "GB" stamped where it says "type" but the engine casings are all WOF marked.

I should think an M201 over there is quite unusual but yours sounds like a good mix of parts with some very large WW2 lumps on it.

I always use the reference to Triggers broom (from an old TV show over here) his favourite broom has had two new heads and 3 new handles!

To be honest the only time I find it awkward is at shows when people say "wow a WW2 jeep is it a Willys??" I then have to explain it is ex French at which point they go "oh". On the other hand it is a lovely Jeep to drive and is very reliable, will happily start on a good battery after months of not running.

Thanks again

Dan

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Re: Differences GPW,GB,M201 - my observations

Post by 70th Division » Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:33 am

Hello Dan,

Jeeps are wonderful things !
Looking forward to your pictures !!

I do want to mention .. the Willys model is " MB " not GB :D
The Ford model is " GPW"
The WOF/Hotchkiss is "M201"

Now when someone says that your beautiful M201 jeep is a Willys, well yes it is a Willys
:D :D :D
WOF means : Willys Overland France
Hotchkiss made them in France under license from Willys Overland in America.
They were built to supplement the US Jeep supplies that France had after WW2.
Now what is interesting to know is that Hotchkiss was an American who
went to France and opened a factory many years before. The famous French Hotchkiss guns from WW1 were from Hotchkiss. Here is some interesting history :
http://www.m201.com/hotchkiss/hotchkis.htm

The jeeps all look the same, and provoke great memories and images from WW2 and the Liberation of Europe, but also around the entire world.
The jeeps were everywhere, and continue to be everywhere all around the world.
They were, and are universal :D :D :D

My French Jeep is not a French built M201, but it is a Willys MB made in 1944.
It has a few WOF parts added to it, but is a US Made MB jeep.
The engine has an MB with a serial number on the raised oval behind the oil filter.
It also has French data plates added to the side of the engine when they rebuilt it in 1962.

If you find a raised oval behind your oil filter bracket, and it has "MB with a number stamped on it", it is an American made Willys engine from WW2.
Also I think your hood may be US origin, if the wood block holes are welded up.
Look for an F script on your hood hinge, as I also have some GPW parts on my jeep.

Pictures will answer a lot of questions !!!

If I can move several of my jeeps out of the way, I can get some pictures of my ex-French MB.
This jeep likely was given to the French during the fighting in WW2 or just after WW2 by the US Army.
It really is a beautiful jeep, and I need to get it running !!
The transmission needs an overhaul as the stick shifter is stuck in place. (rusted)

I also have collected many random French made WOF parts here in the USA that I have found, or were being tossed... enough to almost build a complete M201 :D :D :D :D
I really need just the frame now, and 1 fender. Maybe a hood too :D
I also want to get a camouflage vinyl top for it and paint it with the more recent Euro camo pattern. I love that paint scheme !!!!!

So many projects.... and I love it :D :D :D !!!!

Best Regards,
Ray

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Re: Differences GPW,GB,M201 - my observations

Post by bigfeet » Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:13 am

Hi Ray, sorry I thought I had posted the photos on this post but I realised they had gone into the M201 page. Sorry about GB and MB I did know that but suffer from some kind of typing Tourette’s!
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Re: Differences GPW,GB,M201 - my observations

Post by Seff » Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:00 am

Earliest M201 tubs had 90% wartime features. Lack of notch, and welded in triangle, on the front inside corner of the rear wheelwell (as opposed to folded, like on a wartime tub).

That means your M201 tub can easily have curved as opposed to angled cowl support, and wartime-type rear panel body brace, without being cut up and partially wartime.

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Re: Differences GPW,GB,M201 - my observations

Post by 70th Division » Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:41 am

Hello Dan,

Wow your jeep is beautiful !!!
It looks great, the radiator is a French one.

I really like the roundel on the hood :D :D :D
I really am thinking I want to put one on my Desert Rat jeep, even though it is a 1943, not a 42 as I once thought.
But I saw pictures in North Africa with the Desert Rats using the British roundel on the hood of their Jeeps.
There needs to be more of them in the world :D :D :D
It is a great symbol of Britain !!!!

Best Regards,
Ray

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Re: Differences GPW,GB,M201 - my observations

Post by bigfeet » Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:57 pm

Thanks Seff, I am beginning to wonder if they would have bothered messing around cutting up wartime tubs anyway. My problem is my imagination runs away with me! The French Jeeps are hard to dissect and I guess they are all uniquely different. 75 years is a long time for a wartime tub to be in service and I guess no one really knows what or how much restoration has been done in the past.
Seff wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:00 am
Earliest M201 tubs had 90% wartime features. Lack of notch, and welded in triangle, on the front inside corner of the rear wheelwell (as opposed to folded, like on a wartime tub).

That means your M201 tub can easily have curved as opposed to angled cowl support, and wartime-type rear panel body brace, without being cut up and partially wartime.

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Re: Differences GPW,GB,M201 - my observations

Post by bigfeet » Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:04 pm

Thanks Ray I’m glad you like her! I’ve seen a few roundels on Jeeps over here but far more American Stars Obviously but I think most of the lend lease jeeps retained their star even though they were in foreign service. There can’t be many roundels on Jeeps stateside?? Just be careful people don’t treat it as a target!! I used a few original photos I found of RAF WW2 Jeeps.

What do you think about the seats and pedals? Is there anyway of telling if they are French? I thought the label on the radiator had that string of onions and beret feel about it! I did wonder if it was a refurb plate but I cannot see any other manufacturer marks on it. Were MB ones Ali and not copper like mine?

Would love to see some pics of your jeep division.
70th Division wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:41 am
Hello Dan,

Wow your jeep is beautiful !!!
It looks great, the radiator is a French one.

I really like the roundel on the hood :D :D :D
I really am thinking I want to put one on my Desert Rat jeep, even though it is a 1943, not a 42 as I once thought.
But I saw pictures in North Africa with the Desert Rats using the British roundel on the hood of their Jeeps.
There needs to be more of them in the world :D :D :D
It is a great symbol of Britain !!!!

Best Regards,
Ray

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Re: Differences GPW,GB,M201 - my observations

Post by 70th Division » Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:51 pm

Hello Dan,

Yes watch the target situation !!!
A Star or Roundel, both targets these days.
At least here in the USA we can still carry M1 Garand Rifles with us on our jeep, or a carbine ,
with plenty of ammo if an attack is launched :D :D :D

I am not knowledgeable to determine if the seats are MB or M201. They look the same from what I can
figure out.
One thing maybe the shape of 1 side of the rivet that holds the passenger side seat hinge on.
On an MB one side is round and shapely, the other side is not 100 percent flat, but more like an aspirin ,
with a slight curvature to it.
The M201 would be the same, except maybe the one side of the rivet is smooth flat ?
I looked at some of my seats, and that is about all I can determine. I don't know if the are both MB or 1 is M201. The one that I have that I think is M201 is the flat sided rivet, and that is in the French MB.

The pedals I don't know about either, yours look like the Ford GPW style, but would have casting marks in them if they are Ford.
The MB pedals are smooth pedals, with no little knobbies.
I did notice that on your passenger seat underside, there is 1 early type footman loop that the straps attach to secure your canvas top in storage there. (more squared off shape)

I will try to get to the French return jeep and post some pics here :D

Here is a link to a the greatest M201 site !
http://m201.com/

It has been updated and is loaded with info and pictures, click on pictures and more options appear :D


Stay Safe !!!

Best Regards,
Ray

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Re: Differences GPW,GB,M201 - my observations

Post by Bangle 99 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:42 am

If the seats are French they should be stamped WOF on top of the pan nearest the seat back.
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Re: Differences GPW,GB,M201 - my observations

Post by Rod Rushton » Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:01 pm

Hi Guys! I don't know if you have seen the Frederick Warne's Book on"The Jeep" (Warnes's Transport Library) with authors Jean-GabrielJeudy, and Marc Tararine. It has a large amount of information on ll things Jeep especially the Hotchkiss M201 as well as odd-ball ones and modern Jeeps too.
It is quite a large book with 270 pages of text and photos.
I have had a copy for many years, so it might be out of print, but well worth searching for. There is a companion volume dealing with the GMC Family of a similar size, again a good reference book
I met Gabriel on one of the first tours to France in the '70's - a very knowledgeable fellow
Although I have a '44 GPW, I have come to consider the M201 a worthy successor to the MB/GPW with a number of improvements - but they still kept the steering relay mounted on the front axle which can make them quite wayward!
I can never understand why as the slightly later M38 eradicated nearly all its predecessor's shortcomings, probably the authorities not wanting to add to the problems in Wartime production.
Keep up the good work - and don't forget to wash your hands afterwards!
Cheers R
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Re: Differences GPW,GB,M201 - my observations

Post by armyairforce » Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:00 am

I've had an M201 since 2005 and a GPW since 2012. Over that time, I've carefully looked at many WIllys, Ford and Hotchkiss Jeeps, looking for the differences in design. So far I've spotted around 60 differences between the Jeeps. Sometimes Willys and Ford have commonality, other times it's Willys and Hotchkiss. Then you have the WIllys, Ford and Hotchkiss Jeeps that have been rebuilt by the French factories, sometimes more than once, mixing up the parts with whatever refurbished part was at the top of the spares pile. Some changes are more obvious while others are more subtle. Then there's the changes in the design over time from a single manufacturer, so two Hotchkisses ( or should that be Hotchkii ) can have different features!

It can be a very confusing subject and there are many owners that think they have a pure Willys or Ford, without realising they have a selection of Hotchkiss parts in there too. On the other hand, a friend bought a Hotchkiss and after he got it home, I pointed out it was a Willys chassis.
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Re: Differences GPW,GB,M201 - my observations

Post by armyairforce » Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:40 am

Here's one of the subtle little differences that often go un-noticed. It's the centre handle on the inner screen frame. Pressed steel on the M201, a casting on the MB & GPW.

Image

Image

Another one often not noticed is the roof canvas studs.

Image

Image

I haven't paid much attention to the seat frames in my M201, but will have to have a closer look.
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Re: Differences GPW,GB,M201 - my observations

Post by armyairforce » Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:38 am

bigfeet wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:14 am
.......
2. Seats: The front drivers and passenger seats look identical to GB (The Ford I know is F Marked) thing is I see these for sale stating they are "wartime" but is there anyway of actually telling an M201 seat apart from a GB one?
.......
Dan
I've just been out having a look and comparing my M201 an GPW. It gets a little confusing because during my GPW rebuild, I could only find an 'f' marked front passenger seat. I bought a driver's seat and rear seat from a dealer who said they were Hotchkiss seats. The original 'f' marked passenger seat is bolted to the bracket that it pivots on, using the bolt as the pivot. In my Hotchkiss, the front passenger seat pivot is a rivet. Both are bolted to the floor.

So according to the dealer, the driver's seat in my GPW is a Hotchkiss part. It is different to the one in my Hotchkiss! The one in the Hotchkiss, may actually be a Willys seat! The difference lies in the hole for the fuel tank sender. On the seat in the GPW ( allegedly a Hotch seat ) the sender hole is about 3 1/4 inches wide by 2 1/2 inches fore/aft. On the driver's seat in the Hotchkiss ( possibly a Willys seat? ) the sender hole is 4 inches wide by 2 1/2 inches fore/aft.

I can't see any WOF stamps or any other stamps in either seat with them fitted, though there may be something out of sight.

Moving on to the rear seat, once again, they are different. The seat in the GPW was sold as a Hotchkiss seat. That has a drain hole around half way along the swaged stiffeners in the seat base ( a natural place for water to gather ). On the rear seat in my M201 ( manufacturer unknown ) there are no drain holes in the swaged stiffeners, but there are four holes in the middle of the seat ( fore and aft ) in a rectangular pattern, slightly offset to the left of the seat centre line. The holes are probably about 4 inches apart fore/aft and 2 inches apart width. There are no other drain holes.

EDIT - Just been looking on a dealer's website and the seat with the holes in the swaging is listed as a Willys seat and the one without the drain holes is Ford. So one small step further forwards, but now I need to know whether the seat in my M201 is a real Ford rear seat, or whether Hotchkiss copied the Ford style seat!

Where the back seat is pivoted, the bracket on the tub, the rivets are different on each tub. The GPW has an ACM type 2 body I believe and the rivets that hold the bracket look an even half round shape. On the M201, the rivets are still half round shaped like the other, but extend straight for a short distance before doming over, giving a taller rivet that has a slight straight side before becoming a dome.

I kept looking! The brackets that the screen/hood clamps hook into are also a different shape on the M201 compared to the GPW. There are differences in the rivets on the clamps that fasten the screen to the dash too, the M201 being a larger and taller dome than on the GPW.

There will be more, but I could do with both Jeeps outdoors to look further as the lighting in the garage isn't great and it's a bit of a squeeze!

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