Cat among the pigeons

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Klaas
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Cat among the pigeons

Post by Klaas » Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:34 pm

Cat among the pigeons..

Yes, I am going to throw it….

Every time when I read posts on the “G”, when somebody restoring a jeep “back to factory condition”, I think: “There is no such a thing as restoring back to that.” The vehicle has had a life of about 80 years after it left the factory where it was produced and had at least several - good, bad and ugly- paint jobs and (sometimes a lot of) modifications. You can restore a vehicle to resemble how it looked when it left the place where it was put together, but you will never achieve a factory condition, except when you stumble across a vehicle left in a corner of said factory which never left the premises (or a boxed up example which never left said premises.)
Also the restoration will result in a vehicle that looks so much better than the actual vehicles which left the assembly line back then: remember that guy wildly spraying everything in sight with a coat of OD on the assembled frame, engine and drive train?

“It is only original once”

Same with looking for an engine in a GPW which is close to the frame number….useless unless you manage to find the exact same engine again to comply with the number stamped on the dash plates and the frame. Otherwise it will just be another replacement engine.
MB owners have it somewhat easier, but there is a limit to the range of engines fitted from original to the stamped frames.

The section on the “G” about “unrestored vehicles” is getting filled with vehicles that the owners are busy restoring…..which will not leave them unrestored, unfortunately.
As much as I enjoy reading about (and commenting/helping) those owners and their efforts in their posts, they belong in the restoration section of the website and the section about the unrestored vehicles should be left to those unrestored vehicles alone, untouched except for regular maintenance.

Well, that should get things stirred up, but I like to say in my defence that I thoroughly enjoy the fellowship, camaraderie and helpfulness as displayed on the “G” and that the above ramblings should not distract from the fact that we all enjoy our green vehicles through hell and high water and spent loads of money on our hobby to keep them rolling!

Just recognise them for what they are: fantastic machines with a whole lot of history behind them.

P.S., I have sent this text to Ron for approval prior to posting and got a reply from Ken Creason to say it is OK to post.
Klaas
GPW17331 - April 21 1942 - Dallas, "J-dot"
BSA Airborne Bicycle R49171 - 1944


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Tuareg
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Re: Cat among the pigeons

Post by Tuareg » Thu Mar 02, 2023 11:25 pm

It is a very interesting question.

In my case I want to restore it with many NOS or used parts as I can. Of course I will use an engine in my frame number range and original tub with my original gusset and others parts, correct tranny for July 1942, and everything correct for my DOD, but not to factory condition I want to leave some parts with the marks of the years as the pedals, the steering box column protection with it’s bangs as the handles that have a few marks too. etc.

Hood numbers and star, etc must not be perfect. They must recreate the hand of the private that with 18 years old and a brush painted them, that is my idea of a restoration of this type of cars

Thanks la for posting that point of view and fasten your seatbelts 😃😃
Last edited by Tuareg on Fri Mar 03, 2023 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Willys MB
DOD 27 july 1942
TUB 63439
CHASIS MB161718
Estimated Hood number very high 20214xxx to very low 20215xxx
Probably 1st Armored Division, Operation Torch, still doing research.
Probably Diplomatic number plate by French Government in Morocco. Still doing research. Any information is welcome!

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Re: Cat among the pigeons

Post by Klaas » Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:32 am

Thank you for your kind words.

You are absolutely right about the paint style of the markings applied in the field.
I remember from when I did my National Service in the army in the late 70's that the M38A1 (Nekaf) then in use was re-painted by brush (or broom) more often than not over dirt, sand and oil without a piece of sandpaper in sight. Finish was usually multi-coloured green in patches with insignia painted by hand with lumpy white paint or over the previously applied sticker. Even the official registration numberplates were crudely overpainted by hand...
Servicing was done by flipping the jeep onto its side on a pair of rolled up camouflage nets (to prevent damage from the pavement, which would result in more overpainting) and using a grease gun on the zerks....much easier than crawling underneath.

But that was then...I am sure these days the armies of the world take more pride in their equipment :lol:

All the best and good luck with your restoration!!
Klaas
GPW17331 - April 21 1942 - Dallas, "J-dot"
BSA Airborne Bicycle R49171 - 1944

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Re: Cat among the pigeons

Post by The Fireman » Fri Mar 03, 2023 3:29 pm

Klaas,

You bring up an interesting point. I don't know if it is a play on words or the meaning there of. Yes, I concur that a jeep was only "Factory Original" until it rolled off the assembly line and was then stored or put into service. If you take the term in its current meaning, I believe that if a person puts the jeep back to a pristine condition as it "would of come out of the factory", then yes, the term maybe accepted as such by the MVPA.

I am not an expert nor good in English terms and meanings. I myself would not attempt to do a "Factory Class " restoration per se. My own experience in restoration, is in the motor pool class. The last military jeep I restored was a matching numbers 1943 GPW that was used by the Marine Corps. There is an article in the MVPA publication Army Motors, Number 127, about the restoration of this jeep. During this restoration, the shrapnel, fragmentation and bullet holes were left untouched. This jeep was on Iwo Jima and did a hitch in the Occupation of Japan after the war.

The jeep now resides at the National Museum of the Marine Corps, Triangle, Virginia. The original TAC markings were uncovered during the restoration. These TAC markings indicated that the jeep was assigned to B company, 27 th Marines, 5 th Marine Division, Fleet Amphibious Force. During the Occupation of Japan, the additional TAC markings were put on the outer panel of the windshield frame "VAC. MED. BN." (5th Amphibious Corps MED BN Medical Battalion) in hand painted red letters. The jeep was then returned stateside and some years later put out to pasture or into civilian hands

This is my own opinion of accepting the use of the term "Factory Original".

Respectfully,
Frank
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Re: Cat among the pigeons

Post by Klaas » Mon Mar 06, 2023 12:41 am

We are of the same opinion, Frank.
Thank you for your comment and the story of your USMC jeep restoration. It would have been a shame if its battle scars and markings had been lost during the restoration.
Klaas
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Re: Cat among the pigeons

Post by sjalbert » Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:36 am

My Jeep got refurbished in the 80's. The exterior bits (handles, top bows & brackets, rear bumpers, tail light buckets & tandem hand operated windshield wiper assembly) were missing. I also installed fresh canvas. Around 2009 I replaced the post war engine with a WWII block, welded in a new fuel tank sump (the original was missing when I bought the Jeep back in 1985), replaced the fuel tank that had rusted, refreshed all the rubber (hoses & tires) and replaced the wiring with a reproduction harness and replaced the canvas that had gone missing while the Jeep resided in a museum. The rest of the Jeep is original and most of the parts I've installed were NOS. IMHO the Jeep is unrestored. It's decidedly motor pool and still wears the paint job it had when I bought it.

Factory class Jeeps while clearly a labor of love look better than any Jeep ever did when it left the factory.
Seth
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Re: Cat among the pigeons

Post by Mark Tombleson » Mon Mar 06, 2023 11:10 am

Fortunately or maybe unfortunately, I'm considered the jeep police on the Willys-Overland side of the isle.

Frank showed his jeep same as mine in Portland Oregon in 2008 and our jeeps went on to be in the Hall of Fame in 2013. The article in Army Motors on my jeep was issue 120, even got the front cover.

If you look at the judging program on the MVPA site you can see what the issues are and how they try to accommodate the different classes to be judged.

https://www.mvpa.org/programs

Be sure to look at the PDF page 101-2

Back then it was a competition, a little different now. Saying it is not "Factory Condition" is putting yourself ... how do I say it, out of context maybe, by that I mean coming from a world perspective instead of what the posters were referring to, which is the MVPA Standard.
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Re: Cat among the pigeons

Post by Klaas » Mon Mar 06, 2023 9:58 pm

Hi Mark, Thank you for your contribution. I am from Europe and I personally was not aware of the MPVA document regarding judging the different classes.
As stated in that document, even in the US there has been a discussion about the term "Factory Class" with that title going back and forth.

I am still convinced that erasing the history of a military vehicle by restoring it back to "factory class" is the wrong way. It may be different for a WW2 -era vehicle that never left the US and was "only used in training" from a vehicle that was sent overseas and "did its bit" towards victory, but even those stateside vehicles have a story to tell about the way GI's were trained for combat.

I have seen MV's in museums that look like they are made of plastic as there is not a scratch or imperfection to be seen and they look soulless and out of place.
IMHO it is different for other types of classic cars as compared to MV's since they were built for a different purpose and were finished to high standards as a matter of course.
Totally unlike the MV's rolling of the production line with chalk marks and (a lot of) overspray.
Klaas
GPW17331 - April 21 1942 - Dallas, "J-dot"
BSA Airborne Bicycle R49171 - 1944

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Re: Cat among the pigeons

Post by sjalbert » Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:59 am

Thanks for the link Mark. Reading through those descriptions (and having been a judge at the 2019 convention) my Jeep might squeak a silver in Motor Pool Class. All the bits are correct and it definitely has an “in use” appearance :lol:
Seth
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1942 MBT 15799, USA 0217497 viewtopic.php?f=18&t=225199
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Re: Cat among the pigeons

Post by The Fireman » Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:37 pm

To all,

I am not sure but due to lack of response on this issue, perhaps either the pigeons flew off or there is a very large cat running around that won't need any chow for sometime.

Respectfully,

Frank
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Re: Cat among the pigeons

Post by Klaas » Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:19 pm

Hi Frank, I think that, because of the lack of response, most people here on the "G" are on the same page as we are and restore their vehicles with respect for their history these days. The cat was already well fed when thrown and the pigeons did not take any notice this time, so they live happily together forever after... :wink:
Klaas
GPW17331 - April 21 1942 - Dallas, "J-dot"
BSA Airborne Bicycle R49171 - 1944


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