Time for a Second Contract “EP” Thread?

Feb, 1942 - GPW1 thru end of first contract, April, 1942 - GPW15000 NO EBAY or COMMERCIAL SALES.
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Michael O.
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Time for a Second Contract “EP” Thread?

Post by Michael O. » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:15 am

There is a substantially high number of post-First Contract (VEP) GPW’s being posted and discussed in this forum. In order to give these owners a forum to call home, and to maintain the integrity of the VEP forum, maybe an additional thread didicated to these non-VEP (but still early production) GPW’s?

Just a thought.
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Re: Time for a Second Contract “EP” Thread?

Post by OldGPW » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:13 pm

Michael,


I think part of the problem is that a lot of people are assuming First Contract vehicles are 'Very Early Production' (a made up term) and simply using the 15,000 serial number as a cut off. The problem with that, is that an assembled GPW can have a serial number under 15,000 or a Date of Delivery in April, but still have features associated with a Second Contract GPW.

Personally, I think the existing definition is not very accurate since it doesn't reflect the actual assembly process. Basically the only thing you can definitely call first contract are the motors if going by serial number and date, but the assembled vehicles straddle both contracts when it comes to features. Since not every plant used up their Midland frames at the same time, we can't definitively say that is more than a feature we expect of a First Contract, and thus a 'VEP'. But what is an 'Early Production' then? Are we lopping in all the Scripts as either a VEP or EP? Lots of little details which frustrate collector made designations.

Going by most of the posts in this section, things that make a VEP:
Midland Frame
Pancake Air Cleaner
Wilson Engine Block
And a small host of other things (scalloped axles, etc).

Things which are not really VEP but certainly are First Contract (and Second Contract)
Murray Frame
Oakes Air Cleaner
Ford produced Engine Block
Non-Scalloped Axles, and a larger list of other things.

If we are going to stick with a VEP designation in the hobby, we need a real definition of what it means. Add to that the 'Second Contract' ended up getting increased from the original order, and that can also cause confusion as well.

Food for thought.
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Re: Time for a Second Contract “EP” Thread?

Post by OldGPW » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:25 pm

At this point the easiest solution might be to rename this section "Script GPW's" and call it done. :lol:

But seriously, so much has been learned and is still being learned that it has made some of the made up collector terms a little out of date or not really applicable anymore.

Splitting the two groups doesn't solve the issue really, because no matter how you look at it, the easiest definition (and the one that will make the most people happy) is to leave the definition tied to the First Contract. If you do that though, you will have to accept Second Contract talk because later First Contract GPW's are Second Contract GPW's by feature (but not by hood number!). So no matter what, you will be discussing parts usually considered Second Contract, and splitting the discussion would not really accomplish anything in my opinion.

As they say, if it ain't broke.
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Re: Time for a Second Contract “EP” Thread?

Post by Michael O. » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:25 am

I absolutely agree that the acronyms VEP, EP, MSP, etc are “fantasy” acronyms that we collectors have made up. My question was more aimed at the fact that the First Contract forum (aka the VEP forum) has many post-first contract vehicles. I posed the question to see if making another thread to focus on Second (and maybe additional contracts) would be viable?

Maybe we should start referring to GPW’s by contract as Ford did? On a positive note, even though our collector invented terms aren’t perfect, they do help to adequately convey a particular time period of production to even the most novice of collectors.
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Re: Time for a Second Contract “EP” Thread?

Post by Fabrizio » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:33 am

I think that most « out of range » GPWs seen on the VEP section are there just because the post’s authors didn’t bother reading the header.....I have answered 3 times in a row about that on the VEP serial list topic; and people keep posting later serials...
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Re: Time for a Second Contract “EP” Thread?

Post by Tom Wolboldt » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:36 pm

To all those concerned,

Over the years Script Ford GPW owners have declared themselves " special " and the odd balled detailed 1st contract GPW owners even " more special ".

For the 1st contractors, no matter how you try to define the odd ball 1st contract features it can not be done because the odd features changed at random times spread over 5 assembly plants with varying shipping times of components from the main Dearborn supply point ranging from a day or so up to 10 days or so. There is only about one detail that separates 1st and 2nd contracts and that is the locking glove box door and even it may be a little loose since there was up to an eight day overlap of 1st and 2nd contract work depending on the assembly plant . 1st contract GPWs can have Serial Nos. up into the 19,XXXs and 2nd contract GPW can start with Serial Nos. in the mid 9XXXs. So using serial numbers to define these groups is sheer folly.

Perhaps better names, if sub names have to be used, would be Script GPWs with locking glove box doors and Script GPWs without locking glove doors.

This will most likely still not make the " more special " GPW owners happy with their GPW Ford made motor - Midland frame - Oakes air cleaner GPWs but they will get over it.

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Re: Time for a Second Contract “EP” Thread?

Post by Ian Fawbert » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:07 pm

Tom wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:36 pm
This will most likely still not make the " more special " GPW owners happy with their GPW Ford made motor - Midland frame - Oakes air cleaner GPWs but they will get over it.
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Re: Time for a Second Contract “EP” Thread?

Post by OldGPW » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:58 pm

Haha, Tom that is what I was thinking too. :lol:

No matter how you look at it, they are GPW's. Some have different features, but none can really be nailed down to a number or date. Early is early, and no matter what they are all cool.

Michael, precisely. There is a lot of room for confusion when collectors terms take precedence in things. Even referring to them by contracts is iffy and Tom said (I was trying to illustrate that earlier, but probably didn't do a good job). There are so many variables that we probably need to simplify things like Tom suggested.
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Re: Time for a Second Contract “EP” Thread?

Post by Michael O. » Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:14 am

Tom wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:36 pm
Over the years Script Ford GPW owners have declared themselves " special " and the odd balled detailed 1st contract GPW owners even " more special ".
So we’re not “special”? :cry: You know I’m kidding!

Perhaps a better way to “group” GPW’s would be:

Script GPW’s
Non-Script (Ford Tub) GPW’s
ACM Type I Tub GPW’s
ACM Type II Tub GPW’s

.....or we could just leave things status quo.
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Re: Time for a Second Contract “EP” Thread?

Post by Chuck Lutz » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:17 pm

As Tom and others have noted....Different factories ended their contracts at different times and during the course of a contract changes occured at factories at different times. Basically these designations are far from definitive anyway...they should not be used to pigeonhole any particular jeeps features or DOD if plates are missing, they are good for broad generalizations only. I do think the G503 Forum titles are still OK though as they don't indicate a serial number or date to divide one from another.
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Re: Time for a Second Contract “EP” Thread?

Post by Mike Wright » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:10 pm

My Momma says I’m special :D

Seriously,
When I first talked to Ron about this section on the "G" we talked about it and went with the Ford contract number and info. Does the heading need to be changed, I don't know. This forum is a way to differentiate the DEFINATE differences between the earliest ford production and the later more standard production, kinda like the Willys MB Slatt forum.
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Re: Time for a Second Contract “EP” Thread?

Post by Chuck Lutz » Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:12 pm

Think for a moment how the Willys guys look at it....they have to deal with the following:
Slat Grill...with no glove box
Slat Grill...with glove box
Script
Type I
Type II
.....Which sounds to me like they have VEP, EP, kinda Early, Mid and Late....and that is based only on the TUB.

GPW guys have the following to deal with:
First Contract (because a 1st Contract has, well, some cachet to it besides just a locking glove box door!
Then the rest of the "script" GPWs
Then the non-script GPWs
Then the ACM I GPWs
Then the ACM Type II GPWs

...and that's just following the same identification as the Willys guys going by the TUB.

I really don't think we can assign cut-off dates or contracts or serial numbers or USA numbers or factories to any of this because it isn't scientific at all, it's just a few general terms.
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Re: Time for a Second Contract “EP” Thread?

Post by OldGPW » Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:47 pm

Which is why it basically comes down to a choice of three things:

A: Midland Frame = VEP
B: Script = VEP/EP
C: No change to the forum


Option A makes sense, but would not make a lot of people happy, and would also confuse a lot of people since 'VEP' has often been referred to by contract (even though First Contract can be different from Second Contract in name and number only).
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Re: Time for a Second Contract “EP” Thread?

Post by OldGPW » Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:50 pm

Option D: is to forget the 'VEP' and 'EP' designation completely (since it is a collectorism) and just call them first or second contract GPW's. Which also makes sense, and I believe Michael suggested this before.
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Re: Time for a Second Contract “EP” Thread?

Post by Chuck Lutz » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:22 am

Except that Ford continued to produce tubs after the Script "FORD" was discontinued, then they flirted with the Type I and then went to the Type II. That only covers the TUBS....if you wish to delineate the difference between frames that adds yet another kind. Of course those who have been here forever I think tend to view the First Contract as separate from all other GPW production. Pancake air filters not withstanding.

Again, if you REALLY want to simplify, then consider the Type II, the Type I, the non-script and the script. I can't cut down these designations any further....call them what you will.
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