MA 450S Carter Carb

1940 - 1941 BRC, MA, GP, Preproduction Prototypes. Knowledge Base NO EBAY or COMMERCIAL SALES.
George Hollins
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Re: MA 450S Carter Carb

Post by George Hollins » Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:07 am

Based on the Willys Parts List dated January 1946 (photo below), the Carter 450S was the first Carter carb used by Willys starting in 1940. Willys had always used Tillotson carbs up until 1940. For some reason Willys changed to the Carter 450S mid-year 1940 production. Harry Tillotson was a longtime friend and associate of John Willys until Willys died in 1935. Tillotson was a pallbearer at Willys funeral. Maybe someone has knowledge as to why Willys Overland management changed from Tillotson to Carter carbs in 1940.

wo2jeeper:
Have you found Carter carbs from 1937-1939 with ribbed air horns? If so, they were not for Willys. If you have evidence of these old mid 1930s carbs with ribs, this would mean it was a Carter design for other customers and not a Willys design?

George
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Willys Parts List 1937-1942 - reduce.jpg
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damar2yxr
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Re: MA 450S Carter Carb

Post by damar2yxr » Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:40 am

Darcy Miller wrote:If you look carefully at the 1939 drawing at the sectioned Air Horn you will see on the right hand side the hole that is sometimes mentioned. So it seems the progress is from a hole to ribbed to smooth.

Darcy
So if the progression is as is stated above and WO Jeeper has asked "WHY?" Could the answer be that the hole was for a set screw of some kind which is logical cuz it's at the front of the carb, ( which could be a problem cuz it's small and maybe would come loose and be lost.) The ribbed design was perceived to be more retentive (which makes sense but is perhaps more costly to produce) and then finally the smooth was a more efficient and less costly manufacturing decision since the air horn used a clamp to hold it in place? (That clamp being more predictable and less likely to be lost and the carb top being cheaper to manufacture.) It seems to me that everything has a progression towards cost efficiency and field efficiency.
So.........if WO Jeeper wonders why the smooth with hole is so scarce maybe it's because it was deemed inferior to the ribbed very early on....I mean, come on, during the rigorous trials these prototypes went through you just can't keep having those air horns popping off.
I don't have access to all these Carter documents like many of you have but would any of you have the exploded view of the air horn to carb drawings showing the parts used to affix the air horn? Was a set screw used ever? When was the clamp incorporated? I bet that darn set screw was a problem during trials. Someone must have thought that a ribbed design incorporated with a clamp was a huge improvement and then the bean counters thought that the carb could be made more cheaply without the ribs and still be retentive enough that's why all the THOUSANDS of MBs and their carbs had smooth tops. I rest my case. (Unless documentation proves otherwise)
Last edited by damar2yxr on Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MA 450S Carter Carb

Post by Chuck Lutz » Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:33 am

The key here is that Willys only made 1,500 MAs I believe....and at the same time they were still making the Americar. That would limit production of the MA to one of the two lines I think Willys had for production. With Willys making maybe 300 MBs a day once they got rolling with two lines, figure 150 MAs a day at the very best. Let's say they had a five day work week then. That's 750 per week maximum....so theoretically MA production could be achieved in two weeks! Even at 100 per day, that's THREE WEEKS of production!

Maybe the MA guys know how long production lasted based on the DODs but the theory that the MA had THREE different Air Horns is a stretch of the imagination. On the other hand, Carter may have used whatever photos they had on hand when they printed the circulars and that is the reason there is some confusion. I too feel the smooth/hole variation is for a set screw for an attachment but for what vehicle or what other application? Certainly it is not needed for the jeep air cleaner crossover air horn fitting and it it WAS used, then the MA parts manual would NOT have listed the collar we are used to seeing on all MBs and GPWs. On the other hand a check of an Americar manual might indicate it was needed there?

I think the ribbed variation is not yet fully explained in the transition from ribbed to smooth or which ever way that went.

I think a rebuilder would be safe to use the RIBBED air horn until something DEFINITIVE shows up and by I do not count Carter circulars from 1946 or 1953! Only a circular dated 1941 would be useful to tell....
Chuck Lutz

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Fred Coldwell
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Re: MA 450S Carter Carb

Post by Fred Coldwell » Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:55 am

wo2jeeper wrote: but why is the 37-38-39 carb build with ribbed airhorn then ? And why are there so many of them around ? While the smooth top with hole is unfindable. I'll would go for that one.
wo2jeeper:

As George has explained in his post, none of the 37-38-39 Willys vehicles used a Carter carburetor from the factory. Instead, per the Willys factory 1946 Parts List he cites they all had a Tillotson carburetor installed at the factory, Tillotson model U-1-A on the Willys model 37, 38 and 48 and Tillotson model U-1-B on the Willys model 39 and the early 440 (before the 440 was changed to use a Carter carburetor). I think your confusion comes from the appearance of "Carburetor Nos 450S-450SA also applicable to 37-38-39 Willys" on the 1953 Revised Carter spec sheet. That spec sheet is not a Willys factory-document. Rather, it is a statement made by third party vendor Carter in 1953 that its model 450S and 450SA carburetors can (in my reading) be retrofitted on Willys vehicles modes 37-38-39 vehicles. You cannot interpret that 1953 Carter statement to mean the 450S and 450SA carburetors were installed at the Willys factory on those Willys vehicles because the factory 1946 Willys Parts List directly proves otherwise. I ask you again, does your 1953-revised Carter spec sheet for the 450S and 450SA list the air horn assembly used on those carburetors? If so, please post a copy of that listing as it might help explain your observations. Thank you.
Chuck Lutz wrote: I think a rebuilder would be safe to use the RIBBED air horn until something DEFINITIVE shows up and by I do not count Carter circulars from 1946 or 1953! Only a circular dated 1941 would be useful to tell....
Hi Chuck:

Please explain why you think the June 2, 1941 Willys Parts List (TM-10-1102) for the MA jeep is not "Definitive" as to parts installed on the MA jeep at the Willys factory. It clearly lists only one air horn assembly used on the MA jeep: Willys part no. 116156 which is further identified as Carter part no. 6-354S which is shown in a Carter document to be the ribbed air horn. Neither Change No. 1 to TM-10-1102 dated August 1, 1941 nor Change No. 2 to TM-10-1102 dated December 1, 1941 list any change to any carburetor part. Is it clear the Carter ribbed air horn assembly was used throughout MA production. So again, why is the Willys factory Parts List for the MA jeep and its two Changes not "Definitive" in your mind? Thank you in advance for your explanation.
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Re: MA 450S Carter Carb

Post by Ladislav » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:49 pm

I have 2 original MA carbs (I had in past 3 ones) comming from MA's and 1 NOS 450S boxed. All have (had) ribbed air horn.

Lad.


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Re: MA 450S Carter Carb

Post by Chuck Lutz » Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:32 pm

That was exactly my point Fred.....one can not use the 1953 circulars which bring to mind the Master Parts Lists for jeeps because they are giving you a part that is available at the time the manual was printed...which works, fits and technically is the SAME but may look different. Not having all those circulars in hand, stated the obvious that unless has the original ones, you would not know if the subsequent changes had a different style of air horn or not.....as you have reviewed all of them and found no difference in the RIBBED style, that would be DEFINITIVE.
Chuck Lutz

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GPW 108552 4/17/43 Louisville, KY. USA 20371278 (DOD est./Tom W.)
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wo2jeeper
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MA 450S Carter Carb

Post by wo2jeeper » Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:25 am

Ladislav wrote:I have 2 original MA carbs (I had in past 3 ones) comming from MA's and 1 NOS 450S boxed. All have (had) ribbed air horn.

Lad.
Lad, thanks. This is a more true answer as in your country there are lesser much parts to get mixed and there were quite a lot MA's sended. If that is so, i'll follow this as a fact and leave the smooth one as a thing to search out better.

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Re: MA 450S Carter Carb

Post by George Hollins » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:09 am

I agree with wo2jeeper that the MA jeeps that have survived in the Czech Republic (Lad’s post) are good examples of very original vehicles. Lad’s discovery of ribbed carbs on original MA jeeps is good information.

The evidence, so far, is that the ribbed air horn replaced the smooth air horn before or effective with the 1941 Willys MA and Americar. It is not known at this time if the Willys 1940 model 440 had the smooth or ribbed air horn. More research is needed.

Below is my photo to try to summarize our debate to date. The ribbed 450S and 507S photos are my NOS carbs. The photos of the two smooth 450S I borrowed from previous G503 posts so thanks to those who posted. There appears to have been a 450S smooth air horn before 1941 with holes and a smooth air horn with no holes. More research is needed.

George
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Willys MA carb research 09July2017.jpg
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Fred Coldwell
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Re: MA 450S Carter Carb

Post by Fred Coldwell » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:21 am

Excellent photographic summary, George, very nicely done. :)
Happy Jeep Trails,

Fred Coldwell
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Re: MA 450S Carter Carb

Post by chasendeer » Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:59 am

Here are some photos of the 450 I have. Still has the factory tag on it.
Jay
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Screen Shot 2017-07-09 at 10.51.13 AM.png
wo 450 carb tag
Screen Shot 2017-07-09 at 10.51.13 AM.png (164 KiB) Viewed 352 times
Screen Shot 2017-07-09 at 10.51.22 AM.png
wo 200 marked base
Screen Shot 2017-07-09 at 10.51.22 AM.png (211.08 KiB) Viewed 352 times
Screen Shot 2017-07-09 at 10.50.59 AM.png
wo 450 carb
Screen Shot 2017-07-09 at 10.50.59 AM.png (251.4 KiB) Viewed 352 times

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wo2jeeper
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Re: MA 450S Carter Carb

Post by wo2jeeper » Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:47 am

But I still have one doubt. How many MA's were produced, that equals the same amount of carbs. Now and then the ribbed carb horns pop up while the smooth ones are very rare. Also a ribbed horn is not logical with the attached elbow air horn.

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wo2jeeper
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Re: MA 450S Carter Carb

Post by wo2jeeper » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:41 am

Smooth versus ribbed, this is enough to tell what is correct I guess ;-)




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Re: MA 450S Carter Carb

Post by Scoutpilot » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:41 am

What you fail to note is that simple little phrase noted on the spec sheet; “450S superseded by 450SA” and what it means in the context of the form.
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Re: MA 450S Carter Carb

Post by wo2jeeper » Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:04 pm

Scoutpilot wrote:What you fail to note is that simple little phrase noted on the spec sheet; “450S superseded by 450SA” and what it means in the context of the form.
What do you make up out of it, these forms date late 40’s. SA still is a zip fit rebuild and of course superseded the new made ones.
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Re: MA 450S Carter Carb

Post by wo2jeeper » Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:07 pm

MA Smooth Horn number 6-315SImage
Americar Ribbed horn number 6-354S
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