Fake armor, Sold

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RCASSIN
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Fake armor, Sold

Post by RCASSIN » Tue May 01, 2018 2:12 pm

I can believe a museum would not do more research before they would buy vehicles!

http://www.journalgazette.net/news/loca ... -artifacts
2000 USMC Kawasaki KLR 650
42 WLA Harley
41 600 Zundapp
41 M-20 BSA
76 Condor
42 Diamond T Halftrack
42 Scout car


clintm20
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Re: Fake armor, Sold

Post by clintm20 » Wed May 02, 2018 4:35 am

Interesting. Dropping a quarter mil on something fake has to hurt.
Green Trucks and High Tides Forever

Diamond T M3 Half-track Serial # M32971 USA 4045956
Autocar M3A1 Half-track Serial # M3A1-47825 USA 4053835
Autocar M16A1 Half-track Serial # M15A1-1945 USA 40150662

jesse
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Re: Fake armor, Sold

Post by jesse » Wed May 02, 2018 4:54 am

While the reputation, or rather lack of, by the seller is well known, ALL the responsibility for inspection, and verification of the condition and authenticity of the vehicles lies with the buyer. The lack of authenticity of these vehicles has been common knowledge for DECADES. A short period of time googling, and/or on the phone with knowledgeable collector could have set them straight. Gross negligence on the part of the buyer.

nirvana
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Re: Fake armor, Sold

Post by nirvana » Wed May 02, 2018 6:17 am

Thoughts:

1- If you're buying a restored WW2 German armored vehicle for $247,000.00 there is a problem somewhere.

2- If you're buying a piece of hard to find German armor you need to assume that a lot of steel has been replaced replaced. Many of these things are recovered range wrecks and/or were subject to some sort of demolition work.

3- If you see welding where rivets should be, or fake vision ports, or whatever else.... Run.

4- Use google

5- If no one else is bidding up a piece at a public auction, be very concerned

6- If no one is buying several pieces at a public auction, Run.

nirvana
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Re: Fake armor, Sold

Post by nirvana » Wed May 02, 2018 11:08 am

So I went to the federal court system and pulled some documents from this case. Of interest to me were the two "authenticity reports" filed with the suit, one each for the Opel and the Marder. Both contain photos of the vehicles in question and WOW...they are complete pieces of crap. The "Marder" has hatches that are just welded openings, the gun has no recoil mechanism and is supported by what looks to be architectural steel beams, and its towing hook broke off during transit because it wasn't attached well. The welds look like they were done by a blind middleschooler, and most of the stuff looks to be held on with non-penetrating tack welds. Its really breathtaking.

clintm20
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Re: Fake armor, Sold

Post by clintm20 » Wed May 02, 2018 11:33 am

They sound like movie props being advertised as originals. Is that still a buyer beware issue or outright fraud? Perhaps some of both?
Green Trucks and High Tides Forever

Diamond T M3 Half-track Serial # M32971 USA 4045956
Autocar M3A1 Half-track Serial # M3A1-47825 USA 4053835
Autocar M16A1 Half-track Serial # M15A1-1945 USA 40150662

nirvana
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Re: Fake armor, Sold

Post by nirvana » Wed May 02, 2018 2:08 pm

The buyer bid on the telephone and appears to have relied only on the photos posted to auction page. If you're gonna drop $300,000.00 on some stuff, send a person....

The Opel is *probably* a Bren-type carrier running gear covered with stuff, while the Marder looks to be a Swedish tank hull with a bunch of trash welded to it. They look to me to be 100% fake vehicles.
Last edited by nirvana on Wed May 02, 2018 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

clintm20
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Re: Fake armor, Sold

Post by clintm20 » Wed May 02, 2018 3:38 pm

If you're gonna drop $300,000.00 on some stuff, send a person....
I could not agree more. You would think a museum would perform some background check or inspection in person. Even if they win the suit they probably won't collect a dime.

It looks like that authenticity report should have happened on the front end rather than after the fact.
Green Trucks and High Tides Forever

Diamond T M3 Half-track Serial # M32971 USA 4045956
Autocar M3A1 Half-track Serial # M3A1-47825 USA 4053835
Autocar M16A1 Half-track Serial # M15A1-1945 USA 40150662

tankanic
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Re: Fake armor, Sold

Post by tankanic » Thu May 03, 2018 5:05 am

we went up and saw them a week or so before the auction. Looked good from the outside, but CLEARLY replicas when you looked inside. angle iron and torch cut plate ect. I didn't see where they called it authentic but if they did, shame on them!!
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M16A1

jesse
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Re: Fake armor, Sold

Post by jesse » Thu May 03, 2018 5:45 am

There are several people in the world today that have an honest passion for building wwii or earlier armored vehicles. Some of their work is incredible. I wonder if any of the fake vehicles in question had their start as such, then fell into the hands of some less than scrupulous individuals who tried to $$$$$$ in on them.

nirvana
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Re: Fake armor, Sold

Post by nirvana » Thu May 03, 2018 9:48 am

Per this article:

http://www.oldcarsweekly.com/features/n ... doors-open
Most of the National Military History Center collection originated with a Belgian museum, the Victory Memorial Museum in Arlon. This museum, the brainchild of Guy Franz Arend, opened in 1990, but was forced to close in 1998. The Victory Memorial Museum collection was noteworthy for having a huge collection of WWII softskins, half-tracks, and support vehicles. It was also known, however, for having some vehicles—especially the German ones—in the collection that were incomplete (in some cases missing engines and other major components), had large portions that were reconstructions, or were almost completely new fabrications around a few original components.
I remember when that collection was sold. Apparently it was common knowledge that the source of these vehicles was a bit questionable, at least in terms of authenticity. The current owner claims that he bought them believing that they were real. Who knows.

clintm20
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Re: Fake armor, Sold

Post by clintm20 » Sat May 19, 2018 5:29 am

This video listing of surviving ww2 german vehicles shows the 'armored' rocket launching maultier at the 1:16 mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fn0vJ-xW24
Green Trucks and High Tides Forever

Diamond T M3 Half-track Serial # M32971 USA 4045956
Autocar M3A1 Half-track Serial # M3A1-47825 USA 4053835
Autocar M16A1 Half-track Serial # M15A1-1945 USA 40150662


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