Lug Nut Wrench

Manufacturers, configurations, Shovels, Axe, Wrenches, Oiler, F/E etc.
Myers
G-Lieutenant Colonel
G-Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 1089
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:21 pm
Location: Fort Riley, KS

Lug Nut Wrench

Post by Myers » Fri May 11, 2018 12:57 pm

Are the WO and Ford marked wrenches the only factory correct choices, with the 41-W wrenches being strictly "motorpool replacement"?
1-44 Ford GPW (161784) USA 20439314, USN 87559
5-4-45 Bantam T3 (68871) USA 0948627


User avatar
Chuck Lutz
Gee Addict
Posts: 26829
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Jeep Heaven

Re: Lug Nut Wrench

Post by Chuck Lutz » Fri May 11, 2018 1:20 pm

Boone...

Yes, the question is were the 41-code versions even WWII-issued. If you ask because the WO and Ford ones are rather expensive when original as opposed to the 41-code, note that there are two versions at least of those! If you need one, you have three choices; the original, the 41-code which perhaps someone has documentation from the gov't as to when they let out a contract and something specifying that marking....or, a reproduction.

It took me 15 years to obtain a FORD marked original LW and during most of that time I had an original WO as a placeholder in my took kit.

Note that the two WO drawings of the LW (one with a 90* bend and one with a slightly greater bend) have notes up to at least 1954 and they do not stipulate the FSN numbers. I believe that came in 1950. But perhaps the gov't purchased additional LWs during the war so marked, proving that would mean those variations would be at least a Motorpool OK item.

Anyone have anything on the 41-code LWs to share?
Chuck Lutz

GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3-C 1947

Myers
G-Lieutenant Colonel
G-Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 1089
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:21 pm
Location: Fort Riley, KS

Re: Lug Nut Wrench

Post by Myers » Fri May 11, 2018 1:42 pm

Hi chuck, it’s not the price of originals, just the complete lack of wrenches for sale. I can’t find any original Ford wrenches, and none of the US vendors even have the reproductions in stock.

Lots of discussion on the WO and Ford wrenches, but not a whole lot on the 41W wrenches, which lead to my question.

Thanks
1-44 Ford GPW (161784) USA 20439314, USN 87559
5-4-45 Bantam T3 (68871) USA 0948627

Joe Gopan
Jeep Heaven
Posts: 49841
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:37 pm
Location: Proving Ground

Re: Lug Nut Wrench

Post by Joe Gopan » Fri May 11, 2018 2:28 pm

I saved two original GI 41-W-3837-25 WRENCH'ES with Mossberg Logo that were stored in our Wrench bin from the immediate post WWII era until the 70's
ORD 7 SNL G-503 dated 11 October 1944 lists the 41-W-3837-25 along with a photo.
A few years back there were some A-348 lug Wrenches on eBay that sold for reasonable prices. The 41-W-3837-25 was also standard issue on M-38/M-38A1
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
7 MIL SPEC MAINTAINED MV'S
COL. BRUNO BROOKS (ARMY MOTORS) IS MY HERO

User avatar
lucakiki
G-General
G-General
Posts: 17578
Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 7:18 am
Location: Torino, ITALY

Re: Lug Nut Wrench

Post by lucakiki » Fri May 11, 2018 2:51 pm

I know for a fact that Myers is not interested in a Willys lug wrench, nor to read that they were available on ebay years ago.
He wants a tool to include in an as delivered GPW tool bag.


He does know, just as most of us know, that original Ford marked lugnut wrenches are extremely scarce, and just as for other scarce tools money alone is not always enough.

The reproduction Ford lugnuts are nothing special: I still remember how a guy with multiple identities, now luckily disappeared from the gee, managed to screw Roger Briggs trading a nice WOA 348 with a repro Ford described as n.o.s...

The jury is still out on the 41-W-3837-25 time frame, but any way these would only be correct for a motorpool kit, not for an as delivered kit.
To boot, they are not cheap anymore.
Luca

WillysMB#344142 6-19-44 Navy N.S.Blue Grey
45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
Way too many WWII military tools,hopefully thinning down,and way too many posts...

__________________________________________
_____________________________________________
__________________________________________

Joe Gopan
Jeep Heaven
Posts: 49841
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:37 pm
Location: Proving Ground

Re: Lug Nut Wrench

Post by Joe Gopan » Fri May 11, 2018 3:18 pm

It is an undeniable fact that the 41-W-3837-25 are listed and illustrated in the 1944 ORD 7.
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
7 MIL SPEC MAINTAINED MV'S
COL. BRUNO BROOKS (ARMY MOTORS) IS MY HERO

User avatar
lucakiki
G-General
G-General
Posts: 17578
Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 7:18 am
Location: Torino, ITALY

41-W-3837 Wrench: the wheat and the chaff.

Post by lucakiki » Sat May 12, 2018 5:16 am

Ben Dover wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 3:18 pm
It is an undeniable fact that the 41-W-3837-25 are listed and illustrated in the 1944 ORD 7.
Undeniable?

Which 1944 manual are you referring to?

I only have handy the January 15 1944 SNL G503: possibly the best illustrated reference, when tools are discussed,because it has not just one but two images of the tool kit.Clear enough images, since both the Moore marking on the adjustable is perfectly visible and the ink stamping on the IRWIN screwdriver.

Now not only the marking of the lugnut wrench is not discernable in neither of the two images, but the only time the stock number is mentioned it is NOT 41-W-3837-25 but rather41-W-3837-55. Not that it matters that much. The fact that there is a stock number in the list does not mean, unfortunately, that the tools had that number on them. When is the last time you saw an hammer stamped with the goverment number?

Hence there is no evidence at all that the illustrated wrench is marked with the 41-W-3837-25 stock number. Have you any evidence on the contrary?
Luca

WillysMB#344142 6-19-44 Navy N.S.Blue Grey
45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
Way too many WWII military tools,hopefully thinning down,and way too many posts...

__________________________________________
_____________________________________________
__________________________________________

User avatar
Chuck Lutz
Gee Addict
Posts: 26829
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Jeep Heaven

Re: Lug Nut Wrench

Post by Chuck Lutz » Sat May 12, 2018 8:31 am

Let us not forget that many items were listed in various manuals using the FSN number when in fact the actual item itself retained a GP or GPW number or a WO number. Finding the FSN number in a 1944 or 1945 manual does not guarantee it was produced with that marking, hence the 1950 addition to drawings that required it be put on an item.
Chuck Lutz

GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3-C 1947

Joe Gopan
Jeep Heaven
Posts: 49841
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:37 pm
Location: Proving Ground

Re: Lug Nut Wrench

Post by Joe Gopan » Sat May 12, 2018 8:36 am

I trust the reference to 41-W-3837-25 in 11 OCTOBER 1944 ORD 7 SNL G-503. There is no evidence that the subject wrench is not stamped with the stock number.

Spare parts, tools, and equipment supplied for the 1/4 Ton 4X4 truck (Willys-Overland Model MB and Ford Model GPW) are listed in the Department of the Army Supply Catalog ORD 7 SNL G-503, which is the authority for requisitioning replacements.
Last edited by Joe Gopan on Sat May 12, 2018 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
7 MIL SPEC MAINTAINED MV'S
COL. BRUNO BROOKS (ARMY MOTORS) IS MY HERO

User avatar
Chuck Lutz
Gee Addict
Posts: 26829
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Jeep Heaven

Re: Lug Nut Wrench

Post by Chuck Lutz » Sat May 12, 2018 8:50 am

That is true....but equally there is no evidence I have seen that indicates it WAS stamped with an FSN number. We would prefer something more definitive stating the FSN marking was to be used when the gov't purchased "spare" LWs.....but given that the gov't required mfgers to provide "spares" for just that purpose (replacement stocks), they may have had enough from the over 600,000 jeeps left over (10% maybe?) to cover replacement in the field. Given that the allies began to turn the tide against the Axis early enough for our forces to recover damaged/destroyed vehicles in the field, it would seem to me that things like the LWs would be available to replacement depot easily enough.

As was mentioned above, if the FSN number for the LW is found in WWII manuals as ending in either "25" or "55". That in and of itself indicates either a different tool (different lugnut sizes?) or they had not yet gotten universal acceptance of one of those markings for the lugnuts used on a G503.
Chuck Lutz

GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3-C 1947

User avatar
lucakiki
G-General
G-General
Posts: 17578
Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 7:18 am
Location: Torino, ITALY

Re: Lug Nut Wrench

Post by lucakiki » Sat May 12, 2018 10:14 am

Ben Dover wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 8:36 am
I trust the reference to 41-W-3837-25 in 11 OCTOBER 1944 ORD 7 SNL G-503. There is no evidence that the subject wrench is not stamped with the stock number.

Spare parts, tools, and equipment supplied for the 1/4 Ton 4X4 truck (Willys-Overland Model MB and Ford Model GPW) are listed in the Department of the Army Supply Catalog ORD 7 SNL G-503, which is the authority for requisitioning replacements.

Why should there be an evidence that the wrench is NOT stamped with the stock number? There is no evidence that is NOT painted pink, nor that is NOT made of Aluminum, but would this fact mean that the wrenches could be pink or made in Aluminum ?

How many other tools are listed with a stock number, but are not stamped with such a number?

But let us stick to lugnut wrenches: how do we know that the ones stamped with the stock number were actually made in war time?
They would anyway be motor pool correct, but in no way they would be factory correct.
Luca

WillysMB#344142 6-19-44 Navy N.S.Blue Grey
45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
Way too many WWII military tools,hopefully thinning down,and way too many posts...

__________________________________________
_____________________________________________
__________________________________________

Joe Gopan
Jeep Heaven
Posts: 49841
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:37 pm
Location: Proving Ground

Re: Lug Nut Wrench

Post by Joe Gopan » Sat May 12, 2018 10:41 am

The Stock room requisitioning a Jeep lug wrench would requisition from the latest Supply Catalog, the item requisitioned would be ordered using the Official Stock number in the Current supply publication for the SNL G-503 1/4 Ton 4X4 Truck.
Real simple, and the tool that is received just might be stamped with one of the 3 possible part numbers for the G-503 Lug Wrench.
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
7 MIL SPEC MAINTAINED MV'S
COL. BRUNO BROOKS (ARMY MOTORS) IS MY HERO

User avatar
lucakiki
G-General
G-General
Posts: 17578
Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 7:18 am
Location: Torino, ITALY

Re: Lug Nut Wrench

Post by lucakiki » Sat May 12, 2018 10:41 am

Myers wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 12:57 pm
Are the WO and Ford marked wrenches the only factory correct choices, with the 41-W wrenches being strictly "motorpool replacement"?

Boone, I wholeheartedly wish you to find your Ford lugnut wrench. A times some luck helps!
If you have the patience to read it all, here is an interesting thread:


viewtopic.php?f=48&t=244820

As for your question, since I know why you want an as good as possible GPW toolkit, let me tell that a 41-W marked wrench would possibly not be favourably judged in a jeep entered for judgement. Paradoxically, a good repro would be more appreciated.

On the other side, if you wanted to complete your toolkit for your own pride , if not so lucky in finding an original, a 41-W marked wrench might be a solution: just bear in mind that at the present moment there is no 100% safe evidence that they were actually made in war time. The same applies to 41-W marked hub wrenches.
As much as I would like to consider them correct (motorpool!) I cannot honestly state that they are with 100 % guarantee:that is why when adding one to one of my toolkits I clearly underline what is well known among tool experts.

Of course if Ben Dover can share a plausible explanation for his statement that 41-W-4837-25 wrenches were definitely made in war time, many guys will be more than happy to read it.
Luca

WillysMB#344142 6-19-44 Navy N.S.Blue Grey
45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
Way too many WWII military tools,hopefully thinning down,and way too many posts...

__________________________________________
_____________________________________________
__________________________________________

Joe Gopan
Jeep Heaven
Posts: 49841
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:37 pm
Location: Proving Ground

Re: Lug Nut Wrench

Post by Joe Gopan » Sat May 12, 2018 1:55 pm

The Army thrives on manuals, there are two,January 1944 and October 1944 that list the 41-W-3837-25. Just because the later M-38/M-38A1 Jeeps have them listed does not mean that they have to be post war. The two 41-W-3837-25 Wrenches I have sat for years among immediate Post War parts that were surplused long before the 50's M-38/M-38A1
There is a good chance that the wrenches preexisted the January 1944 SNL by weeks, if not months.
Last edited by Joe Gopan on Sat May 12, 2018 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
7 MIL SPEC MAINTAINED MV'S
COL. BRUNO BROOKS (ARMY MOTORS) IS MY HERO

User avatar
Chuck Lutz
Gee Addict
Posts: 26829
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Jeep Heaven

Re: Lug Nut Wrench

Post by Chuck Lutz » Sat May 12, 2018 1:59 pm

Boone: Luca and I are on the same page here if you read both of our responses.

Go with the repop when they show up and an original when you can find one. It only took me 15 years as was opposed to the ridiculous prices for them on ebay.

If you want a placeholder (41-code) until then pay about $25-$0 for one pluss shipping.

Luca: do you think that is a fair price for a 41-code?

Joel: I found a WO original LW fairly fast and reasonable and passed it on when I picked up an original Ford marked LW. I am sure guys are using a 41-code version as a placeholder for either a GPW or an MB tool kit until they can score an original or maybe find at least a repop in the meantime.
Chuck Lutz

GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3-C 1947


Post Reply

Return to “G503 Tools & Equipment (Vehicle & Pioneer)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 39 guests