Lug Nut Wrench

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Joe Gopan
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Re: Lug Nut Wrench

Post by Joe Gopan » Sat May 12, 2018 2:26 pm

Anyone out there with 41-W-3837-25 Wrenches in their MB/GPW tool bags? I have two and possible more if I look hard enough and they are surplus from long before the M-38 era.
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Re: Lug Nut Wrench

Post by Myers » Sat May 12, 2018 2:48 pm

Honestly, it doesn't matter if anyone has them in their tool bags, that is not the topic of this thread. I have been trying to research the tool forum to find what is "factory correct" but it is very difficult as most of the threads go on for pages and pages and almost always stray from the topic; leaving the reader more confused than at the beginning.

The question was whether or not the 41-W marked wrenches are correct for factory tool kits, and as of now the answer appears to be no.
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Re: Lug Nut Wrench

Post by Joe Gopan » Sat May 12, 2018 4:15 pm

For those of you who are fortunate enough to possess the Lloyd White Collection, Volume 5 Chapter 40 contains much information on Jeep Factory Tools.
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Re: Lug Nut Wrench

Post by Silly's MB » Sun May 13, 2018 12:13 am

Myers wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 2:48 pm
Honestly, it doesn't matter if anyone has them in their tool bags, that is not the topic of this thread. I have been trying to research the tool forum to find what is "factory correct" but it is very difficult as most of the threads go on for pages and pages and almost always stray from the topic; leaving the reader more confused than at the beginning.

The question was whether or not the 41-W marked wrenches are correct for factory tool kits, and as of now the answer appears to be no.
You are right, no is the short answer as nobody knows when the 41-w ----- were introduced or even if they were introduced in wartime. You are best off to get a Ford reproduction until you one day find an original.

Lloyd White's book is concerned with Willy's Factory kits not Fords so might not be so much interest to a Ford owner.
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Lug Nut Wrenches:the wheat and the chaff.

Post by lucakiki » Sun May 13, 2018 5:38 am

Ben Dover wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 1:55 pm
The Army thrives on manuals, there are two,January 1944 and October 1944 that list the 41-W-3837-25. Just because the later M-38/M-38A1 Jeeps have them listed does not mean that they have to be post war. The two 41-W-3837-25 Wrenches I have sat for years among immediate Post War parts that were surplused long before the 50's M-38/M-38A1
There is a good chance that the wrenches preexisted the January 1944 SNL by weeks, if not months.
No, the January 15 44 SNLG-503 does NOT list 41-W-3837-25 but just the 41-W-3837-55, to begin with.

A "good chance that" cannot, by any mean, be taken as evidence, proof, documentation of anything.

People on this forum have been asking for ages whether the 41-W marked lugnut wrenches or hub sockets can be considered as made in War time:I have yet to read a definitive answer.
Quite a number of collectors including myself would be more than happy to read some definitive evidence: until then, the 41-W marked wrenches cannot be considered anything else than "possibly motopool" correct and a quite decent place holder...
Their value,Chuck Lutz? Maybe a bit more than your twentyfive bucks, but not much more than that.It depends on how badly one needs it... :)
Image

Note: picture is not mine! It can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=244820

By the way, it is still printed somewhere how a self-appointed tool expert stated that in WW II the Federal stockage numbers did not exist: no,for the moment at least I will not lose time in order to retrieve such a pearl, since I already know it is just a load of it.

Some guys might believe that 41-W marked wrenches are definitely war time, because Joel Gopan said so: I would suggest to those brave souls to take it with a pinch of salt. After all he is the same guy who bragged about his famous grease gun double adapter having a government stockage number stamped on it!
Ben Dover wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 4:15 pm
For those of you who are fortunate enough to possess the Lloyd White Collection, Volume 5 Chapter 40 contains much information on Jeep Factory Tools.

Now, over than bragging about ownership of the book, could you tell us the use of quoting a Willys book and its priceless information, in order to help Boone Myers who wants to complete a concours tool kit for a Ford GPW?
Luca

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Re: Lug Nut Wrenches:the wheat and the chaff.

Post by Joe Gopan » Sun May 13, 2018 6:33 am

lucakiki wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 5:38 am
Ben Dover wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 1:55 pm
The Army thrives on manuals, there are two,January 1944 and October 1944 that list the 41-W-3837-25. Just because the later M-38/M-38A1 Jeeps have them listed does not mean that they have to be post war. The two 41-W-3837-25 Wrenches I have sat for years among immediate Post War parts that were surplused long before the 50's M-38/M-38A1
There is a good chance that the wrenches preexisted the January 1944 SNL by weeks, if not months.
No, the January 15 44 SNLG-503 does NOT list 41-W-3837-25 but just the 41-W-3837-55, to begin with.

A "good chance that" cannot, by any mean, be taken as evidence, proof, documentation of anything.

People on this forum have been asking for ages whether the 41-W marked lugnut wrenches or hub sockets can be considered as made in War time:I have yet to read a definitive answer.
Quite a number of collectors including myself would be more than happy to read some definitive evidence: until then, the 41-W marked wrenches cannot be considered anything else than "possibly motopool" correct and a quite decent place holder...
Their value,Chuck Lutz? Maybe a bit more than your twentyfive bucks, but not much more than that.It depends on how badly one needs it... :)
Image

Note: picture is not mine! It can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=244820

By the way, it is still printed somewhere how a self-appointed tool expert stated that in WW II the stockage number did not exist: no, I will not lose time in order to retrieve such a pearl, since I already know it is just a load of it.

Some guys might believe that 41-W marked wrenches are definitely war time, because So and So said so: I would suggest to those brave souls to take it with a pinch of salt. After all he is the same guy who bragged about his famous grease gun double adapter having a government stockage number stamped on it!
Ben Dover wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 4:15 pm
For those of you who are fortunate enough to possess the Lloyd White Collection, Volume 5 Chapter 40 contains much information on Jeep Factory Tools.

Now, over than bragging about ownership of the book, could you tell us the use of quoting a Willys book and its priceless information, in order to help Boone Myers who wants to complete a concours tool kit for a Ford GPW?
_______________________________________________________________________________________
The reference to the January 1944 ORD 9 was a typo on my behalf, The 41-W-3837-25 in ORD 7 SNL G-503, however, is not and is listed for all to see on Page12 and 16.

"Bragging about ownership" of "the book", no, Luca but JEEPS and MV''s have been my hobby for 7 decades , it's a great hobby and what makes it both fun and great is sharing information and taking a moment here and there in an attempt to help fellow hobbsts in a MATURE manner.
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Re: Lug Nut Wrench

Post by pjones » Sun May 13, 2018 7:20 am

We do know when the LNW was given a govt stock number and it was before the war ended, 4 March 1945, in the ORD 5 SNL which listed it as 41-W-3837-55. The only discussion in Fred and Greg's chapter referring to Ford is that the Ford LNW was given the govt stock number 41-W-3837-25 for unknown reasons. When the LNW was stamped with the govt stock number is unclear. I believe that the only correct LNW for a factory MB would be stamped W.O. A-348 or a variant thereof and that the 41-W version would be plausible for a late war motor pool kit. I also believe that the only correct LNW for a Ford factory tool kit would be Ford stamped and the 41-W-3837-25 stamped LNW would be plausible for a late war motor pool kit. There is no discussion in that chapter about what would be correct for a Ford factory kit.
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The wheat and the chaff...

Post by lucakiki » Sun May 13, 2018 7:24 am

I had a spare minute!

Postby Ben Dover » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:07 am
REMINDER"
"Federal Stock Numbers" did not come into effect until the 50's, they are comprised of 11 digits 0000-000-0000, and are part of the "TAERS SYSTEM" of parts numbers. They did not exist during WWII.


Let us not sidetrack: what is your evidence of 41-W 3837- 25 wrenches being actually made and supplied in war time?
If you have any, and post it, that could and should be considered as" sharing information in an attempt to help fellow hobbists in a MATURE manner".

If you do not, then rather than merely increase your post count, it would be more honorable to admit that you are in the same boat as others here: you do not know if the 41-W-3837 wrenches that you own are actually manufactured in WW II.
Luca

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45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
Way too many WWII military tools,hopefully thinning down,and way too many posts...

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Re: Lug Nut Wrench

Post by Chuck Lutz » Sun May 13, 2018 11:00 am

Thanks Phil for the Lloyd reference....that summary in your post pretty much is what Luca and myself use.

Boone now has his question answered I believe....
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Re: Lug Nut Wrench

Post by Wingnutt » Mon May 14, 2018 6:51 am

Ben Dover wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 4:15 pm
For those of you who are fortunate enough to possess the Lloyd White Collection, Volume 5 Chapter 40 contains much information on Jeep Factory Tools.
Ben,
While I'm glad you found the chapter useful, I'm not sure why you are citing it in this discussion. The section on A-348 lends no support to your contention that the Federal Stock Number was stamped on the lug wrench during the war. In case you have misread, or we were less than clear, when we said that the lug wrench was "given a government stock number" late in the war, we did not mean the physical tool itself. That statement was a continuation of the preceding paragraph talking about the tool's lineage as a special OEM tool, outside QMC/ORD ES 422 specs, as far back as the QUAD.

Personally, I do believe that all the Jeep tools bearing an FSN are plausible for wartime replacement tools, especially because they were to be ordered and stored by those numbers, and I would prefer them over a repop (always favoring 'authentic, but possibly post-war' over 'correct marking, but completely fake tool' in my own philosophy), but we don't have any document that proves them as definitively wartime.
pjones wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 7:20 am
We do know when the LNW was given a govt stock number and it was before the war ended, 4 March 1945, in the ORD 5 SNL which listed it as 41-W-3837-55. The only discussion in Fred and Greg's chapter referring to Ford is that the Ford LNW was given the govt stock number 41-W-3837-25 for unknown reasons.
Phil,
I'm not sure, even after looking over my notes, why Fred and I used the March 1945 ORD 5 SNL J-4 and its date for the LNW. Possibly because we were so enthralled with the oddity of the separate FSN's for each OEM appearing in the same manual. Regardless of the reason, note that 41-W-3837-55 does appear earlier in the war, as the Official Stock Number for the LNW in Section 3, Vehicular Spare Parts, of the 15 January 1944 ORD 7 SNL G503, aligned with both mfgr's numbers (WO-A348 and FM GPW 17035). It does NOT appear in Section 2, Maintenance Parts, Group 23, where the Official Stock Numbers for the lug wrench are listed as WO-A-348 and FM-GPW-17035. Our apologies for misleading information.

All,

I have said this before, but note again that the dimensions for the 41-W-3837-55 or -25 LNW do not appear in any SNL that I know of. As noted above, the -55 number is cited in the 15 January 1944 SNL G-503, but no dimensions are provided. As note above, the -55 and -25 numbers are both cited in the 15 March 1945 ORD 5 SNL J-4, but again, no dimensions are provided. It simply cites the vehicles (Bantam, MA, and MB for the -55; and GPW for the -25) that the tool is to be used on.

There are dimensions in the 11 October 1944 ORD 7 SNL G503 for 41-W-3837-25, but they are obviously erroneously referring to the wrong tool: "WRENCH, wheel stud nut, double end, hexagon and square opening, 1-33/64 in. hex 0.817 in. sq."

I know we've been through all this before. Chuck already alluded to the fact that Willys issued two slightly different diameter openings of the same tool: 25/32" hex and 49/64" hex. Obviously, two slightly different approaches to specifying some slop. Ford probably did the same. Obviously the nuts were interchangeable from a GPW to an MB. What's the opening on the GPW-17035 LNW? Do we have a good sample size? Maybe it was sufficiently different from the Wo A-348 to warrant a separate FSN.

Has anyone every done a serious sampling?
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Re: Lug Nut Wrench

Post by Joe Gopan » Mon May 14, 2018 8:11 am

SNL G-658 lists A-348 as the Unit Manufacturers Number for the GPW-17035.
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Re: Lug Nut Wrench

Post by Wingnutt » Mon May 14, 2018 9:01 am

Ben Dover wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:11 am
SNL G-658 lists A-348 as the Unit Manufacturers Number for the GPW-17035.
If you're referring to the 29 Feb 1944 Ford Master Parts List, that's true, Ben, and that makes perfect sense. Note that it cites the Willys Overland A- part number in that column for every tool common to the MB, GP, and GPW. I'm not sure what your point is, but I interpret this as what we would call an original source spec today. Many of the entries with WO-A part number citations in the Ford MPL are part numbers for tools that were also issued to other Ford vehicles (e.g., 2GA Special Sedan, GTB 1.5 ton cargo truck, etc), because they were part of the common core toolkit as defined in QMC and then ORD Engineering Spec 422. Where was WO A-348 sourced from? Kelsey-Hayes. But it doesn't mean Ford's LNW's were the same as Willys'. As mentioned many times here, Willys' weren't even all the same. The WO A-348 actually had two slightly different specs. Maybe Ford preferred one or the other openings and when the ORD got around to giving the LNW an FSN late in the war, it decided to give the two different openings their own FSN, aligning one with WO and one with Ford. ?? Just a theory.
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Re: Lug Nut Wrench

Post by Joe Gopan » Mon May 14, 2018 9:07 am

I realize this, just trying to help tie all this together. If we try to do this one sided, something important may get overlooked.
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Lug Nut Wrench question

Post by lucakiki » Mon May 14, 2018 12:56 pm

Myers wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 12:57 pm
Are the WO and Ford marked wrenches the only factory correct choices, with the 41-W wrenches being strictly "motorpool replacement"?
Boone,maybe you would have preferred a very short but correct answer?

Here it is: YES!

Of course with a short answer it is not possible to hint at one's long exposure to jeeps, nor to mention any extra tools one might have for sale, et cetera et cetera et cetera...
Luca

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45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
Way too many WWII military tools,hopefully thinning down,and way too many posts...

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Re: Lug Nut Wrench

Post by Wingnutt » Wed May 16, 2018 4:14 am

Ben Dover wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 9:07 am
I realize this, just trying to help tie all this together. If we try to do this one sided, something important may get overlooked.
Gotcha. It was a good point, but with Willys itself having two variations of its own, for its own part number, I think it's plausible to read the A-348 citation in the MPL as a fairly soft spec to Ford (as long as it wasn't less than 3/4"!) I truly believe that measuring the opening hex diameter in a statistically significant sampling of F-script lug wrenches might help unravel the -55 vs -25 mystery.
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