MAC & War Tools
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MAC & War Tools
Anyone have any further insight or, what is the consensus on MAC supplying tools for GMTK? I've found multiple articles in newspapers similar to this one I posted on Google+ so you can see / read it. Of course this particular announcement is for AAC, but I suspect based on the write-up they had more contracts.
https://plus.google.com/118117143319673 ... 9673674004
https://plus.google.com/118117143319673 ... 9673674004
- Wingnutt
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Re: MAC & War Tools
I meant to respond to this the other day and then forgot to, Todd, which is probably a good indication of the current status of MAC on this site, ironically, which I would characterize as indifferent. (Please, guys, anyone else feel free to jump in on this if you disagree... I don't like talking for the group.)twertsy wrote: what is the consensus on MAC supplying tools for GMTK?
Long answer is...
I don't think there is any consensus one way or another on MAC here, for supplying the GMTK, for any other upper echelon tool-sets, or for any wartime tool-sets. Not for lack of interest. Given MAC's popularity as an American-made brand (easily rivaling if not surpassing Snap-On's popularity in some parts of the country), I would bet many of us, me for one, would love to include MAC tools.
I would say there are two major inhibiting problems.
(1) There's never been any evidence. All the other major mid-century giants (Snap-On, Plomb, Williams, New Britain, Duro, Vlchek, etc) have at least one very strong official government reference (ORD 5, ORD 6, Technical Manuals, WPB/CPA War Supply Contracts books, WPB bulletins, etc) in which they are either directly cited or their tools are indisputably visually identifiable. And some of those mfgrs (e.g., Vlchek) and some other not-quite-giant mfgrs (e.g., Barcalo, J.P. Danielson, Fairmount, etc) are cited in vehicle OEM (e.g., Willys, Ford, Dodge, etc) factory tool-set documents. While the MAC website and old newspapers seem to paint a history in which several often confusing pre-MAC entities were in operation producing hand tools and sockets (McPherson-Huff Tool Co. - 1925, 1938, 1943; Clinton Tool Co. - 1944; MAC Allied Parts Co. - 1944; Mechanics Tool & Forge - 1938), which your website nicely summarizes, none of those names show up in any wartime documents.
(2) What do the tools definitively look like? And how are they definitively marked? There are no catalogs or advertisements or period photos that can be definitively dated to wartime that I know of that would verify what "MAC" tools to collect.
Having said all that, your newspaper article is interesting on one point. The $46K value and the newspaper's reporting of an expected total of ~$250K in the future. The WPB/CPA War Supply Contracts books only include contracts with a value or $50,000 or more. It's possible that Mechanics Tool & Forge had multiple contracts less than $50K in value, which might explain why there are no contracts under that name - or any of the other pre-MAC entity names - in the books. Please note, though, before you go too crazy with that info, that the overwhelming majority of the other verified mfgrs had multiple contracts in the books, totaling millions of dollars. Meaning, while it's possible - and maybe even more possible for a smaller company with no capacity for large production output - that is not the typical acquisition pattern that the data in the book presents.
In short...
I, for one, would be willing to give Mechanics Tool & Forge some potential, limited credence for USAAF tools based on the article alone.
But what did they look like, definitively?
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Re: MAC & War Tools
It's not that I'm a huge MAC fan and frankly, I'm just curious due to some of the stuff I've seen during my research. Here are my extremely early Mechanic's Tool & Forge tools (combos) that there is no doubt are in the sweet spot in terms of the timeframe being discussed. https://plus.google.com/118117143319673 ... BCbF6f4aFXWingnutt wrote:I meant to respond to this the other day and then forgot to, Todd, which is probably a good indication of the current status of MAC on this site, ironically, which I would characterize as indifferent. (Please, guys, anyone else feel free to jump in on this if you disagree... I don't like talking for the group.)twertsy wrote: what is the consensus on MAC supplying tools for GMTK?
Long answer is...
I don't think there is any consensus one way or another on MAC here, for supplying the GMTK, for any other upper echelon tool-sets, or for any wartime tool-sets. Not for lack of interest. Given MAC's popularity as an American-made brand (easily rivaling if not surpassing Snap-On's popularity in some parts of the country), I would bet many of us, me for one, would love to include MAC tools.
I would say there are two major inhibiting problems.
(1) There's never been any evidence. All the other major mid-century giants (Snap-On, Plomb, Williams, New Britain, Duro, Vlchek, etc) have at least one very strong official government reference (ORD 5, ORD 6, Technical Manuals, WPB/CPA War Supply Contracts books, WPB bulletins, etc) in which they are either directly cited or their tools are indisputably visually identifiable. And some of those mfgrs (e.g., Vlchek) and some other not-quite-giant mfgrs (e.g., Barcalo, J.P. Danielson, Fairmount, etc) are cited in vehicle OEM (e.g., Willys, Ford, Dodge, etc) factory tool-set documents. While the MAC website and old newspapers seem to paint a history in which several often confusing pre-MAC entities were in operation producing hand tools and sockets (McPherson-Huff Tool Co. - 1925, 1938, 1943; Clinton Tool Co. - 1944; MAC Allied Parts Co. - 1944; Mechanics Tool & Forge - 1938), which your website nicely summarizes, none of those names show up in any wartime documents.
(2) What do the tools definitively look like? And how are they definitively marked? There are no catalogs or advertisements or period photos that can be definitively dated to wartime that I know of that would verify what "MAC" tools to collect.
Having said all that, your newspaper article is interesting on one point. The $46K value and the newspaper's reporting of an expected total of ~$250K in the future. The WPB/CPA War Supply Contracts books only include contracts with a value or $50,000 or more. It's possible that Mechanics Tool & Forge had multiple contracts less than $50K in value, which might explain why there are no contracts under that name - or any of the other pre-MAC entity names - in the books. Please note, though, before you go too crazy with that info, that the overwhelming majority of the other verified mfgrs had multiple contracts in the books, totaling millions of dollars. Meaning, while it's possible - and maybe even more possible for a smaller company with no capacity for large production output - that is not the typical acquisition pattern that the data in the book presents.
In short...
I, for one, would be willing to give Mechanics Tool & Forge some potential, limited credence for USAAF tools based on the article alone.
But what did they look like, definitively?
- Wingnutt
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Re: MAC & War Tools
I didn't interpret your post as promoting MAC as a pet brand so much as wondering about its acceptance as a wartime supplier, Todd. The construction features of those combo wrenches do look like the right vintage, as does the lined leatherette roll-up. We're just a funny bunch here. Wary, overall, and cautious about verification. Then, once a brand is accepted, it's like sharks in the water. I'm just letting you know that MAC just hasn't reached chum status yet, and why.
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- d42jeep
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Re: MAC & War Tools
I think another problem with the acceptance of Mac is that, unlike virtually all of the commonly accepted brands, they aren't generally found in the immediate postwar repacks, as far as I know. Steve and Phil may be able to confirm or deny this.
-Don
-Don
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- mudbox
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Re: MAC & War Tools
I really don't know much about Mechanics Tool and Forge, so please take my comments with a grain of salt.
Other than the combination wrenches, which seem to be the most survived tools from MAC of that era, what else did they actually make? I was under the impression that while they carried a full line of mechanics tools, many of their tools were contract manufacture.
If that's really the case, and war broke out, perhaps no one had the capacity to supply Mech T&F with any contract produced tools. And, if they were only making a small range of tools 'in house', it would stand to reason that any Government contracts would have been for lesser amounts (both dollars and tools).
I really don't know, maybe I'm just blowing smoke.
Anyway, I really like your Mech T&F set of combos. There was a set up on eBay just last week in the same roll up, but a (seemingly) complete set of wrenches.
I suppose the 'C' series was prior to the CW series combos?
I posted this in my flea thread, but I found a MAC CW 24 combo (3/4") a few weeks ago that was never milled out on the box end. This one appears to have remnants of a gray painted finish, which I assumed was wartime...
The only other MAC tool I have from that era is the X2R 3/8" drive ratchet. Which I though was perhaps made by Herbrand, based on the 'bullet' style selector, but apparently could have been made by Wright as well. I don't know.
If any tools/Brands are grossly under-represented in the GMTK/wartime tools in general, I believe it's Blackhawk. Based on Wingnutt's research, they seemed to have a large number of contracts awarded, and for very sizable sums.
Anyway, just my $0.02.
-Jason
Other than the combination wrenches, which seem to be the most survived tools from MAC of that era, what else did they actually make? I was under the impression that while they carried a full line of mechanics tools, many of their tools were contract manufacture.
If that's really the case, and war broke out, perhaps no one had the capacity to supply Mech T&F with any contract produced tools. And, if they were only making a small range of tools 'in house', it would stand to reason that any Government contracts would have been for lesser amounts (both dollars and tools).
I really don't know, maybe I'm just blowing smoke.
Anyway, I really like your Mech T&F set of combos. There was a set up on eBay just last week in the same roll up, but a (seemingly) complete set of wrenches.
I suppose the 'C' series was prior to the CW series combos?
I posted this in my flea thread, but I found a MAC CW 24 combo (3/4") a few weeks ago that was never milled out on the box end. This one appears to have remnants of a gray painted finish, which I assumed was wartime...
The only other MAC tool I have from that era is the X2R 3/8" drive ratchet. Which I though was perhaps made by Herbrand, based on the 'bullet' style selector, but apparently could have been made by Wright as well. I don't know.
If any tools/Brands are grossly under-represented in the GMTK/wartime tools in general, I believe it's Blackhawk. Based on Wingnutt's research, they seemed to have a large number of contracts awarded, and for very sizable sums.
Anyway, just my $0.02.
-Jason
- pjones
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Re: MAC & War Tools
Don,
I didn't find them in the repacks but there are a few caveats to that statement.
1. The tools in the warehouse were bought by a family after ww2 and stored in a warehouse. The original purchaser bought what he needed or wanted leading to a selection bias. That is to say being able to walk into Pueblo Depot and directly purchase tools would be a more representative sample.
2. Additionally the warehouse has been picked through for many years and a MAC fiend could have snatched them all up.
3. The warehouse included post war items.
4. The warehouse contained items from multiple military branches.
Not to mention other potential complicating factors...
phil
I didn't find them in the repacks but there are a few caveats to that statement.
1. The tools in the warehouse were bought by a family after ww2 and stored in a warehouse. The original purchaser bought what he needed or wanted leading to a selection bias. That is to say being able to walk into Pueblo Depot and directly purchase tools would be a more representative sample.
2. Additionally the warehouse has been picked through for many years and a MAC fiend could have snatched them all up.
3. The warehouse included post war items.
4. The warehouse contained items from multiple military branches.
Not to mention other potential complicating factors...
phil
pjones
'42 Ford GPW 7127
Need a MVMTS/GMTK?
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'42 Ford GPW 7127
Need a MVMTS/GMTK?
Need a jeep toolkit?
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Re: MAC & War Tools
I'm a pretty heavy Blackhawk collector but I'm not sure I've seen what I would consider wartime tools? Maybe I have them and just don't know it?mudbox wrote:I really don't know much about Mechanics Tool and Forge, so please take my comments with a grain of salt.
Other than the combination wrenches, which seem to be the most survived tools from MAC of that era, what else did they actually make? I was under the impression that while they carried a full line of mechanics tools, many of their tools were contract manufacture.
If that's really the case, and war broke out, perhaps no one had the capacity to supply Mech T&F with any contract produced tools. And, if they were only making a small range of tools 'in house', it would stand to reason that any Government contracts would have been for lesser amounts (both dollars and tools).
I really don't know, maybe I'm just blowing smoke.
Anyway, I really like your Mech T&F set of combos. There was a set up on eBay just last week in the same roll up, but a (seemingly) complete set of wrenches.
I suppose the 'C' series was prior to the CW series combos?
I posted this in my flea thread, but I found a MAC CW 24 combo (3/4") a few weeks ago that was never milled out on the box end. This one appears to have remnants of a gray painted finish, which I assumed was wartime...
The only other MAC tool I have from that era is the X2R 3/8" drive ratchet. Which I though was perhaps made by Herbrand, based on the 'bullet' style selector, but apparently could have been made by Wright as well. I don't know.
If any tools/Brands are grossly under-represented in the GMTK/wartime tools in general, I believe it's Blackhawk. Based on Wingnutt's research, they seemed to have a large number of contracts awarded, and for very sizable sums.
Anyway, just my $0.02.
-Jason
- Gordon_M
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Re: MAC & War Tools
Just one comment from this side of the pond to add a little colour.
I have been keeping a close eye on the tools available / for sale here in the UK for a while, and I haven't seen anything branded as MAC, unless the branding or configuration wasn't clear, or I didn't recognise it. If they were a major supplier, even if it was just to the USAAF, I would have expected to have seen something.
I have been keeping a close eye on the tools available / for sale here in the UK for a while, and I haven't seen anything branded as MAC, unless the branding or configuration wasn't clear, or I didn't recognise it. If they were a major supplier, even if it was just to the USAAF, I would have expected to have seen something.
Gordon
1941 Highway Trailer K-38
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Re: MAC & War Tools
That makes perfect sense. I appreciate everyone's input on this. I did a major deep dive research activity on MAC and associated companies a month or so ago (Under Mechanics Tool & Forge in "Todd's Research" - http://toolarchives.com/node/2389) and was curious about the often mentioned military contracts connection. I suspect it was there, but as Greg said, in very small portions.Gordon_M wrote:Just one comment from this side of the pond to add a little colour.
I have been keeping a close eye on the tools available / for sale here in the UK for a while, and I haven't seen anything branded as MAC, unless the branding or configuration wasn't clear, or I didn't recognise it. If they were a major supplier, even if it was just to the USAAF, I would have expected to have seen something.
- Wingnutt
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Re: MAC & War Tools
At the time of this thread, I had no knowledge of the Jeep spec drain plug wrenches marked "MAC SABINA, O." and "41-W-1962-50". These tools go a long way to ease my wariness about MAC. For cross-referencing of related topics, link to photos and discussion here.
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- mudbox
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Re: MAC & War Tools
I posted this short offset DBE before, in a different thread, but I think it belongs over here as well.
MAC BC2024 is 5/8" & 3/4". Finish is pained grey or possibly black enamel.
This wrench is not marked with the Sabino, O.
-Jason
MAC BC2024 is 5/8" & 3/4". Finish is pained grey or possibly black enamel.
This wrench is not marked with the Sabino, O.
-Jason
- d42jeep
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Re: MAC & War Tools
That’s a good one! That size combination was probably made due to meeting the government specification, as most civilian wrenches would have been the more common 5/8” X 11/16”.
-Don
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Re: MAC & War Tools
I have yet to pull a MAC from any of the repacks and I have not found any loose either.
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- Wingnutt
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Re: MAC & War Tools
According to the Dec 1941 Wilmington Journal article, they were making "20,000 to 25,000 units per month" of something. At that time they had a US Army Air Corps contract ($46K), "several smaller government orders for various kinds of tools," and $250K in contracts on the way. I have found several other newspaper articles showing that they went from 1 to 4 buildings and from 8 to over 100 employees by 1944.
I have been in the skeptic column for a long time, maybe especially because none of their entities (McPherson-Huff, MT&F, MAC Allied, or Clinton) show up in the MWSC records. But those crude little DPW's go a long way in convincing me the newspaper articles were not fluff pieces.
I'll congregate some examples below. These all look like early 40's tools to me, in construction, finish, and in the fact that they all bear the 1939 first use mark ("MAC"), not the fancier 1948 trademark. Notice also that they all have the same famous 'Ohio Hex Throat' that Cornwell and Wright wrenches have, and also the same phonetic model numbering scheme.
I found this D9L "D" for DOE ("L" probably for long) wrench last year.
Here is a TD 5 ("Tappet DOE") wrench with different size combinations...
Here is a D12 DOE wrench..
Here is a special tool (that sure looks like an aircraft maintenance tool to me)..., that also has the "MAC SABINA, O" marking...
Here is Todd's partial "C" combo set...
I have been in the skeptic column for a long time, maybe especially because none of their entities (McPherson-Huff, MT&F, MAC Allied, or Clinton) show up in the MWSC records. But those crude little DPW's go a long way in convincing me the newspaper articles were not fluff pieces.
I'll congregate some examples below. These all look like early 40's tools to me, in construction, finish, and in the fact that they all bear the 1939 first use mark ("MAC"), not the fancier 1948 trademark. Notice also that they all have the same famous 'Ohio Hex Throat' that Cornwell and Wright wrenches have, and also the same phonetic model numbering scheme.
I found this D9L "D" for DOE ("L" probably for long) wrench last year.
Here is a TD 5 ("Tappet DOE") wrench with different size combinations...
Here is a D12 DOE wrench..
Here is a special tool (that sure looks like an aircraft maintenance tool to me)..., that also has the "MAC SABINA, O" marking...
Here is Todd's partial "C" combo set...
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