GMTK Toolboxes

Manufacturers, configurations, Shovels, Axe, Wrenches, Oiler, F/E etc.
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Hartofoak
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GMTK Toolboxes

Post by Hartofoak » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:08 pm

I've read many threads on this forum about the General Mechanics Toolkit toolboxes and wondered if I should have started a new topic or added it to one of the older topics. Anyway here is my new topic:

Like several others I've started collecting the various tools that make up the GMTK and thought I would post the following about two toolboxes I've aquired here in the UK during the last month or so. The first is a later version (NSN 5180-00-177-7033) made by GEM, with 'narrow' hinges, a padlock hasp, superior hinge design, no oiler hole and which I have repainted. The second is much older, in its original paint, with wider hinges (but not as wide as some described), a single oiler hole, round tray handle and unfortunately a recently welded-on padlock hasp. I have not been able to get any info on where it came from.

On the side of the box is stenciled in black, the words TOOL SET and what appears to be part of the Federal Stock Number for the entire toolkit i.e. not the box number. According to Greg Hines (posted June 2009) this number is 41-T-3534-75. I've done some photoshopping to show it more clearly.

ImageImageImage

BTW, if Irwin screwdrivers with their Federal Stock Number are now deemed to be too late for the G503 toolkit purest, does this mean that the GMTK toolboxes with stamped-on '41-B-1840' are also too late for WWII?

I wonder how many GMTK toolbox designs have now been located?
MB 298781 DoD: est. 01-19-44 (ex British Army 1958)
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Greg Hines
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Re: GMTK Toolboxes

Post by Greg Hines » Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:53 pm

That number looks like 41-T-3538 to me. It is not listed in my 1944 G-27 as the part number for any of the sets contained in that manual. There were changes in the 1945 G-27, perhaps someone can check for that number there.

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Re: GMTK Toolboxes

Post by Hartofoak » Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:11 am

Thanks Greg. Maybe I was over-zealous with photoshop and the '8' is just a blob. I presume the stenciling is genuine even though poorly done. It certainly looks as old as the box. Shame whoever did it made a mess of the FSN. I'm still happy that it turned up in the UK in 2012. I have bought several other WWII vintage items from this seller, so I'm hoping the box is a relic of the American UK bases. Now I need to complete the tool-list for it.
MB 298781 DoD: est. 01-19-44 (ex British Army 1958)
T1 Trailer: "Transportation Equipment Co."
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Re: GMTK Toolboxes

Post by lucakiki » Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:50 am

Hartofoak wrote:


BTW, if Irwin screwdrivers with their Federal Stock Number are now deemed to be too late for the G503 toolkit purest...
This is not completely true, and there is nothing that could be compared to a consensus of sort.
To begin with, the rejection by some, whose defintion of "purist" might be at least questioned, is based on a Willys drawing.
I have read somewhere how a Willys drawing should not anyway be used to prove something outside of Willys environment.
Mark Tombleson, if memory helps me.
We have no evidence that Irwins were not so marked before the requirement was added to the Willys drawing, and I recall Greg Heines posting about evidences of the contrary.
Of course, we have not yet seen a 41-S-1078 screwdriver that is actually marked on shank: it might surface one day, maybe even made by Fairmount, but so far it we are just wondering if ever it existed.

As for toolboxes, it is quite possible that they might have the number stenciled on, rather than embossed on.
It would make sense, at least.
Luca

WillysMB#344142 6-19-44 Navy N.S.Blue Grey
45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
Way too many WWII military tools,hopefully thinning down,and way too many posts...

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Re: GMTK Toolboxes

Post by Greg Hines » Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:00 am

Hartofoak wrote:Thanks Greg. Maybe I was over-zealous with photoshop and the '8' is just a blob. I presume the stenciling is genuine even though poorly done. It certainly looks as old as the box. Shame whoever did it made a mess of the FSN. I'm still happy that it turned up in the UK in 2012. I have bought several other WWII vintage items from this seller, so I'm hoping the box is a relic of the American UK bases. Now I need to complete the tool-list for it.
When you mentioned UK bases that jarred my mind, and I immediately thought AAF. I checked my Tables of Organization & equipments lists for AAF units and find a kit listed as Motor Vehicles Mechanics which seems to fill the same role as the General Mechanics kit does in Ground Forces units. There is no stock number listed in the TO&Es so I can't be 100% certain it is the same as yours but it seems likely. Except for TO&Es my info is rather sparce on AAF equipment so perhaps someone else can let us know what is in this kit. My guess is that it is slightly different that the General Mechanics kit. I have a photocopy of the contents of the AAF Armorer's kit page so I know such a manual exists.

So based on what you say about where you got it and what I have found above I think it is very likely to be WW2 vintage.

Greg

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Re: GMTK Toolboxes

Post by Hartofoak » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:10 am

Following your post Greg, I did some searching and found this at:

http://www.42fordgpw.com/toolsets.html

Quarter Master Handbook TM10-475 (1943) Appendix G Tool Sets (Complete with Tools)MOTOR VEHICLE MECHANICS' Stock No. 41-T-3538

There is a complete list of 88 tools in this 'set' together with link to a pdf file of a single schematic image of the tools ... very similar list to the GMTK.

I now find that similar information has been posted on this forum.

Looks like the '8' is really an eight and that my box could indeed be WWII vintage.

I don't think I want to add anything to the previous thread on KIT vs SET!
MB 298781 DoD: est. 01-19-44 (ex British Army 1958)
T1 Trailer: "Transportation Equipment Co."
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Re: GMTK Toolboxes

Post by Greg Hines » Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:22 am

Hmm, so possibly just a name/stock number change from 1943 to 1944, interesting.

Greg

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Re: GMTK Toolboxes

Post by Hartofoak » Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:09 pm

Some more searching revealed:

'War Department Field Manual - Quartermaster Truck Companies' dated July 1945 which "supercedes TM10-475 of December 1943". On page 67 of this 1945 manual it refers to 'Table of Organization & Equipment & SNL list G-27 Tools Maintenance'.

You can read this all as a pdf file at:
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref ... M10-35.PDF

As you mention Greg, this indeed suggests a change from 'MVMTS' to 'GMTK' sometime in 1943/44. Doesn't your manual for the GMTK date from 1944?

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T1 Trailer: "Transportation Equipment Co."
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Re: GMTK Toolboxes

Post by Greg Hines » Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:03 pm

Hartofoak wrote:..
As you mention Greg, this indeed suggests a change from 'MVMTS' to 'GMTK' sometime in 1943/44. Doesn't your manual for the GMTK date from 1944?
...
My SNL G-27 vol 2 is dated 1 July 1944.

Greg

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Re: GMTK Toolboxes

Post by spookyfr » Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:12 pm

Hi,

In my G-27 vol 2 from july 45, 41-T-3538 is not on it...

Spk

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Re: GMTK Toolboxes

Post by Hartofoak » Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:41 pm

Hi Spk
I would not expect to see 41-T-3538 listed in your 1945 version of the G-27 (By the way, I do not have a copy of this document). The point made in the previous posts in this thread is the GMTK, as 41-T-3534-75, was previously known as the Motor Vehicle Mechanics Tool Set, 41-T-3538 up to around 1943. The Federal Stock Number for the actual toolbox was 41-B-1840 and did not change. The list of tools appears to be slightly different. I imagine that both tool kits co-existed for a time but I'm not an expert in this area.

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MB 298781 DoD: est. 01-19-44 (ex British Army 1958)
T1 Trailer: "Transportation Equipment Co."
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Re: Motor Vehicle Mechanics' Tool Set

Post by Hartofoak » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:03 am

I have now obtained permission from Robert Notman at 42fordgpw.com to published the following two images from his website. They show the two pages from Appendix G of TM10-475, Quarter Master Handbook: 'Truck Company' printed in December 1943 and mentioned in a previous post. The tool set is similar but not exactly the same as that published by Greg Hines and others for the General Mechanics Tool Set from ORD 6 SNL G-27, Section 2, dated 1944 and 1945. There are differences in the punches, guages and an extra screwdriver(#48) 41-S-1385. The toolbox has the same number 41-B-1840 throughout.
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Image
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T1 Trailer: "Transportation Equipment Co."
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Re: GMTK Toolboxes

Post by OldGPW » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:19 pm

The 1/4" socket set looks more like a walden box, but the illustration is pretty basic so it may not mean anything.
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Re: GMTK Toolboxes

Post by Wingnutt » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:36 pm

Thanks for posting all this MVMTS information, Hartofoak.

The generic figurative illustrations completely remove the ability - and therefore the tendency - to do brand-matching of photos or artisitic renderings in the absence of manufacturer's codes. We have the specs in the descriptions and the date. Very interesting.

I like the way this pictorial layout keeps all the tools more organized by category in the same order as the list.
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Re: GMTK Toolboxes

Post by Wingnutt » Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:01 am

I am trying to nail down the 41-B-1840 toolbox situation before I make a purchase. What I've been able to gather from various very helpful threads (thank you Lucas, Greg Hines, Roger, luca, Robin, karl oliver, and Hartofoak), summarizing here to have people confirm or correct me, is the following:

(1) The verified vintage military version is made by Hamilton Metal Products, marked with mfgr name, address, and FSN on the lid.

(2) The next safest examples appear to be those also made by Hamilton, judging by the key physical characteristics, but are unmarked. These should have soldered-bracket (not riveted-bracket) handles, wide (not thin) hinges, corner supports, supports for the removeable tray on each end inside, and a rounded tray handle, flattened near the ends.

(3) Another example that seems acceptable due to it appearing in a period photo in Greg Forty's 1939-45 Army handbook, has all of the above, but a tray handle that appears flat or rectangular rather than round throughout its length. This type of tray handle is said to distinguish the box from the Hamilton-made marked or unmarked 41-B-1840.

My questions are:

- Did any manufacturers other than Hamilton make a WW2-era 41-B-1840 that was unmarked?
- Who made the other kind (see # 3 above)?

I am also trying to figure out if the oiler hole in the tray is an authentication/identification feature of an unmarked toolbox or not. I've seen photos here of the removeable tray from marked and unmarked toolboxes with and without a hole. As far as I can tell, none of the RAPD figures of a removeable tray show a hole. Is it just the way the RAPD figure was oriented when rendered? Were the holes a field mod? Did some have a hole, some not? (I've seen this come up before, but I still don't understand the above discrepancies...)
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