correct hardware sequence

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the WWII jeep.
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JAB
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correct hardware sequence

Post by JAB » Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:23 am

What are the correct screw, tooth washer, nut, etc. sizes, styles, and sequence for the two little bond straps that go on top of the grille?

What is the correct screw size for the oval head screws that hold down the webbing material in the hood blocks and how far apart are they?

Thanx!
-Jeff

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Ian Fawbert
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Re: correct hardware sequence

Post by Ian Fawbert » Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:41 am

Hi mate.

For your grill bond straps.

GPW or MB?

MB uses a rivet. I'll try to find a post but Mark Tombleson and I are in it if you search before me. It might even be a slat forum post.

GPW uses a #10 (24/32, I forget) binding head screw, I also forget the length and washer OD sorry. 'Forget' purely because I'm not near my samples/references sorry.

No tooth washers used here on either model.

No idea on the hood blocks.

Cheers, Ian.
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Re: correct hardware sequence

Post by JAB » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:03 am

Ian Fawbert wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:41 am
Hi mate.

For your grill bond straps.

GPW or MB?

MB uses a rivet. I'll try to find a post but Mark Tombleson and I are in it if you search before me. It might even be a slat forum post.

GPW uses a #10 (24/32, I forget) binding head screw, I also forget the length and washer OD sorry. 'Forget' purely because I'm not near my samples/references sorry.

No tooth washers used here on either model.

No idea on the hood blocks.

Cheers, Ian.
EXACTLY why I asked. I have a vague memory of what you said, but cannot find a source for the correct answer either. When we do find the answer I think we will find that it's an MB vs. GPW thing as well as early/later.
-Jeff

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Chuck Lutz
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Re: correct hardware sequence

Post by Chuck Lutz » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:35 am

This photo from GPW-108552 may help...
GPW Grill Suppression Strap.jpg
GPW Grill Suppression Strap.jpg (98.02 KiB) Viewed 933 times
The slotted screw head is 3/8" in diameter and the round washer under it is 9/16" OD.
I can feel what I believe is a hex head nut under the edge of the grill and I will assume there is a lock washer between it and the underside of the grill.

The strap is a "U" shaped affair and is wrapped around the edge of the grill from the engine side.

You can see one of the split rivets to the right of it...
Chuck Lutz

GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
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Re: correct hardware sequence

Post by JAB » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:51 pm

Thanks Chuck! I think that's correct for (most?) GPW's. I think the MB is different. My current question concerns the MB I'm working on but a GPW is next in the que so this thread could serve as the answer for both if/when we figure it out. I hope to spend some time with my nose in the manual tonight, but the last time I looked obviously wasn't in the right section....is that a worn round head or a pan head? 10-24? 10-32? So many minor details, yet this is right up front in plain view! Thank you!
-Jeff

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Re: correct hardware sequence

Post by Chuck Lutz » Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:02 pm

All the suppression strap screws on the grill I have ever seen were worn down to the point it would be difficult to ascertain if they were pan-head or round-head....having said that, the ghost of Mr. Spock says, "Logic would indicate that if a good contact between the screw head and the hood would be necessary to achieve proper Suppression, then the use of a pan-head screw would be the better choice."

I have on may occasion seen really beat up hoods that have a nearly round wear mark or a partially worn through hood where those two straps are located....that would be the work of a pan-head, not a round head in my estimation.
Chuck Lutz

GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3-C 1947

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Re: correct hardware sequence

Post by JAB » Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:28 pm

Ah details, trivial details. I have checked several sources and have several sources to go, but here's what I found so far. The screw that holds the webbing in the hood blocks is listed, just several items down past the block itself (*yes, there's a reason I bring this up). It's one size thinner and an 1/8 inch shorter than I would have guessed. According to a spiral-bound recopy of ORD 9 SNL G-503 dated some time after August 28, 1943 (and corroborated by a couple other books) the screws that hold the webbing down in the hood blocks are steel oval head slotted wood screws in size #6 by one inch long. One source has them Parkerized (need to verify) if I understand the designation correctly; FM-32475, WO-53103, four per jeep.

I also found some of the listings for the attaching hardware for the bonding straps (in the Radio Suppression section, not Electrical), but unfortunately only the stuff that is fairly obvious is listed. In fact, it appears, or is implied, that the existing hardware that was already present was used to bond many of the suppression straps. Almost as if it was an afterthought in many locations. So far, all the books I've looked at list the grille to brush-guard straps but do not have hardware listed as the next item on the list. *In most cases in these lists the attaching hardware seems to be the next item listed, but as I pointed out earlier, that's not always the case. If not for Chucks picture, and based on how the other stuff is listed, I would assume that the straps would be held by the hardware that's already there. In this case, the split rivets that hold the anti-squeak. So, I wonder if the MB, at least to the date of my sources, used the anti-squeak rivets to anchor those two straps. I'll keep digging.
-Jeff

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Re: correct hardware sequence

Post by JAB » Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:51 pm

Ian Fawbert wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:41 am
Hi mate.

For your grill bond straps.

GPW or MB?

MB uses a rivet. I'll try to find a post but Mark Tombleson and I are in it if you search before me. It might even be a slat forum post.

GPW uses a #10 (24/32, I forget) binding head screw, I also forget the length and washer OD sorry. 'Forget' purely because I'm not near my samples/references sorry.

No tooth washers used here on either model.

No idea on the hood blocks.

Cheers, Ian.
Thanks again Ian. I searched all your posts with "bond strap" (there are actually quite a few!) but did not find the answer yet. I'm going back to "the library" to dig some more.
-Jeff

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Re: correct hardware sequence

Post by Mark Tombleson » Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:19 pm

Here is the thread... viewtopic.php?t=183062

If it is an MB it is rivets as documented.

You're welcome! :wink: :wink:

I see Al posted on page two... miss that Kiwi. :cry:
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Re: correct hardware sequence

Post by JAB » Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:46 pm

LOL! I'm too old to be doing acrobatics, but I crawled over and through my storage area to access two grilles that I thought could help. With a copy of the January 15, 1944 SNL in hand, opened to Group 18-Body, 2103-Radiator Guards, I was determined to gather and verify evidence. It states that the MB uses 11 split rivets (5 used center, 6 used sides-Willys) to hold the webbing on top of the grille while the GPW also uses 11, but spaced differently (4 used center, 7 used sides). This makes no sense because there are 9 holes for the rivets (or screws) between the headlight hinges (center) and only three on the outboard side of the hinges (sides), with no mention of the 4 rivets for the two short webs on top of the shroud. Anyway, I have the remains of this strap (this SNL refers to them as strap 21 and 22) on each grille, but cannot prove MB or GPW on either. One grille looks just like Chucks but with the head of the screw worn down flat with no evidence of a slot ever being there; any more wear would grind what's left of the head right off. The other grille has the split rivets holding the strap (with a washer appearing to be the same size as on the screwed version). I didn't check for length or pitch on the screws yet, but here's evidence of a difference between two jeeps, one with screws, one with rivets. More research!
-Jeff

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Re: correct hardware sequence

Post by JAB » Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:55 pm

Thanks Mark! That must be what Ian wanted me to see. As you and I typed at the same time, I hadn't seen that prior to checking on my grilles in storage. After reading that thread is seems my research falls right in with the majority. I'll go with the rivets and washers on this MB and keep an open mind for my GPW unless more evidence surfaces. Thank you!
-Jeff

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Re: correct hardware sequence

Post by Ian Fawbert » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:53 am

That must be what Ian wanted me to see
Yes Jeff, that was the one I was hoping you'd find. Sorry I couldnt link to it at the beginning.

Re the rivets, I dont believe there are washers under the rivet head.
45 MB- 421432, DOD 2 march, 1945, USA 20687981.  Grll bond strap.jpg
45 MB- 421432, DOD 2 march, 1945, USA 20687981. Grll bond strap.jpg (51.03 KiB) Viewed 827 times
The above is a 45 MB- 421432, DOD 2 march, 1945, USA 20687981.

Ian.
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GPW: 225290.
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Re: correct hardware sequence

Post by JAB » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:17 pm

Oops! You’re correct. What appeared to be a washer was a ring of wear and a shadow. I need to be more observant and use better lighting. Thanks for pointing that out.
-Jeff

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