4 x 4 Aqua Cheetah amphibious

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Gordon_M
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Re: 4 x 4 Aqua Cheetah amphibious

Post by Gordon_M » Fri Jan 01, 2010 3:37 am

Good information Ian, thank you.

It's barely possible that the UK still exists somewhere but never heard of it, or even rumors. A lot of this stuff did survive and ended up on Highland estates - witness the Eliason Motor Toboggan that sold a month or so back.

As of now, Dan has the only known survivor though, one of fourteen?

We have already listed three survivors of the 25 VC Carryalls made so you never know.
Gordon

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Jan Roelse
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Re: 4 x 4 Aqua Cheetah amphibious

Post by Jan Roelse » Fri Jan 01, 2010 6:05 am

Dear Amphib friends,

The USA number of the Aqua Cheetah (7012104) is according the test report the "not issued" one of the GPA's
I remember this was reported in the front page of one of the Manual's.
702104-709999 inc., 7010000-7012103 inc. and 7012105-7014882 inc.(7012104 is missing, and not for GPA issued!).
Interesting!!! Thanks a lot for the Aqua Cheetah info.
Regards,
Jan
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GPA 1943 #11933
GPW 1942 #34836 (F-script)
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Re: 4 x 4 Aqua Cheetah amphibious

Post by Jim Gilmore » Sun Jan 03, 2010 10:54 am

The Aqua-Cheetah that was given (not sold) to the British was a 1/2 ton 4x4.

Value was $17,500.00 and was transferred under directive D-209-W dated 9/11/41 as Req. No. 3076.

Jim Gilmore

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Re: 4 x 4 Aqua Cheetah amphibious

Post by Gordon_M » Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:49 am

Thanks for that Jim.

Wasn't $17,500 a pile of cash in 1941, I'm not sure.

I think I my liftime the UK Pound has been down nearly at parity with the US $, and I remember $2 to the UK Pound, and vaguely that it was US $ 4 to the UK Pound at one time.

Have you got a comparison? How much was a Jeep on Lend Lease compared with that $17,500 for an AQ?

regards

Gordon
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Re: 4 x 4 Aqua Cheetah amphibious

Post by brian in denver » Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:12 am

sounds like gorden should write up wiki page on the ole G552
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U. ... esignation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:D
ya know you want to
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I hate aquaphobic horses ;)

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Re: 4 x 4 Aqua Cheetah amphibious

Post by Ian Grieve » Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:22 am

Fellas

Great to hear the USA end of the story.

At the British end, the Aqua Cheetah was acquired under British Purchasing Commission Ref. # BPC 2581 (British Contract Supply/Mechanical 2472). A 15 page “Vehicle and Equipment Particulars” was prepared for the vehicle. The USA Contract # was DA-W-398-QM-157.

I have a lot of correspondence of the USA Aqua Cheetahs, however, a very limited amount of their service history. That would be good to see.

In the earlier post, I meant to say that disposal of the Aqua Cheetahs in the USA was to be by August 1, 1945, only three months after declaring them obsolete.

Wheels and Tracks # 44 has an article on the 6x6 Hofheins Water Buffalo that may be of interest.

Ian

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Re: 4 x 4 Aqua Cheetah amphibious

Post by brian in denver » Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:21 am

hmm,
can you guys confirm that the the 3/4-ton is G552,
and the 1/2-ton is G614?
seems chronalogicly backwerds,
BB
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I hate aquaphobic horses ;)

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Re: 4 x 4 Aqua Cheetah amphibious

Post by Ian Grieve » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:19 pm

Brian

I believe you are 100% correct and it sure is strange.

Often you will see both SNL Groups listed as 1/2 Ton and that seems to be a self perpetuating error, a little bit like the statement that about 6,000 GPA's and 12,778 GPA's were produced, another self perpetuated error. The official figure was 12,774 and this is recorded in some histories. The 12,774 can be confirmed at Ford Motor Company, Dearborn, and National Archives, Maryland, provided you look at the correct records. Ford's official history immediate post war first introduced the 12,778 error.

Ian

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Re: 4 x 4 Aqua Cheetah amphibious

Post by Jan Roelse » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:03 am

Ian,
Photocopies from originals in the Ford Archives, Henry Ford Museum (various pages from the amphibian section of the "History of the Ford War Effort") shows on page 4 and 5:
April 11, 1942 - Ford recieved letter contract from Government to build 5,000 amphibians.
November 21, 1942 - Supplemental order for 5,000 additional amphibians
In same period, Second supplemental order for 2,778 additional amphibians.
Total contract amounted to 12,781 to built under an upset figure of $19,143,000.

The production chart (page 13) shows:
1942, Sept.:158, Oct.:1,019, Nov.:1,892, Dec.:2,110 units
1943, Jan.: 2,000, Febr.:1,927, March : 2,268, April :1,403, May :1, June :1 unit.Total: 12,779 (???).

Page 15 in the same copies:
"Thus, including the first three pilot models, the total amphibian order by Mach 1943 was 12,781".

Conclusion to me is: 12,778 or 12,779 production models + 3 pilots.
In my opinion the figure 12,778 must be the most right one.
Jan
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Re: 4 x 4 Aqua Cheetah amphibious

Post by Jim Gilmore » Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:29 pm

12,774 is the correct total of PRODUCTION Ford GPA units produced and delivered.

The contracts called for 12,778 but there was a reduction of 4 units.

This is confirmed by Ford Motor Co. Daily production reports, FMC Engineering Dept. and Office Chief of Ordnance, Engineering - Manufacturing Divison, Requirements and Progress Branch Statistical Reports, 1945.

NEVER...use "History of the Ford War Effort" as a source of exact data on Ford production. It is full of mistakes...and most of the copies of it are the prelimanry editions and not the final correct edition.

The Pilot models, produced under NDRC Division 12 contracts were not included in any of the totals of production vehicles.

These were development OSRD contracts and were for the three pilot models of the QMC 4 Amphibian under the OD-95 project.

Jim Gilmore

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Re: 4 x 4 Aqua Cheetah amphibious

Post by Jan Roelse » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:23 am

Hi Jim,

Thank you for your additional information. The report is the only I have here in Holland since July 20, 1979.
Information sources of this report are Ford plant/department managers during that time. So my idea was the paper was 100% OK.
Can you mail me the wrong parts of this issue or put it on the list? I think GPA- people are very interested.
What do you think about the Ford monthly production figures? Is this (maybe partly ) correct?
What about the The Rifkind Report (Jeep Genesis) do you know this and is that information about the amphibious jeep right?
Sorry for this lot of questions but I collect all GPA-info and photos for 30 years I can find ,and it is always very important to me to "up-date" this part of the story. This is now maybe(!?) possible by way of you and your official sourches. O.c. thanks in advance.
Kind regards,
Jan
GPA 1942 #3972
GPA 1943 #11933
GPW 1942 #34836 (F-script)
CJ3A

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Re: 4 x 4 Aqua Cheetah amphibious

Post by Jim Gilmore » Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:50 pm

Jan wrote,


"...Thank you for your additional information. The report is the only I have here in Holland since July 20, 1979.
Information sources of this report are Ford plant/department managers during that time. So my idea was the paper was 100% OK...."

This report is most often called "the LaCroix file" after the author. It was written, then sent out to mamagers and top personnell , then corrected, then rewritten, sent out again, re written and sent out again three or four times. The one that is most often copied is the second copy which has many mistakes.

"...Can you mail me the wrong parts of this issue or put it on the list? I think GPA- people are very interested..."

I would have to know which copy you have.


"...What do you think about the Ford monthly production figures? Is this (maybe partly ) correct?.."

The total number of vehicles is wrong. It does not match the delivery totals from the War Dept.

"...What about the The Rifkind Report (Jeep Genesis) do you know this and is that information about the amphibious jeep right?.."

I have an original copy from the National Archives and the "Jeep Genesis" which does not have the footnotes and corrections in it. I would have to read it over again to se what is correct and what is not.

"...Sorry for this lot of questions but I collect all GPA-info and photos for 30 years I can find ,and it is always very important to me to "up-date" this part of the story. This is now maybe(!?) possible by way of you and your official sourches. ..."

I have been researching Ford military vehicles for 20 years of more. I spent 4 1/2 months researching in the Ford Industrial Achives (at Ford Motor Co.) and the HFM as well. I have last year gone though the NRDC files in the National Archives researching the GPA, DUKW and the Weasel. In the early 1990's I interview the designer of the GPA(and the GP), Ford Engineer Clarence Kramer at his home.

By the way...I see you have a M-29 and M-29C Weasel.

I am keeping a database of existing Weasels and would like to add yours to the list.

If you would PM me with your Serial/ORD number, Hull number and USA number if known I will chack my data and see if I have anything on your Weasels.

Jim Gilmore

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Re: 4 x 4 Aqua Cheetah amphibious

Post by Jan Roelse » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:24 am

Jim,
Thank you very much for your information and offer.
I see, you spent a lot of time and work to get the right papers ... and even to answer me!
I try to find a.s.a.p. all info about the two weasels in our collection and will mail it to you.
Is it possible to mail me your email addres by way of an PM?
It's maybe easier then to mail you some docs.and photos.
Gr. Jan
GPA 1942 #3972
GPA 1943 #11933
GPW 1942 #34836 (F-script)
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Re: 4 x 4 Aqua Cheetah amphibious

Post by smurf » Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:22 am

judging from the photos this vehicle must have required a lot of man-hours to produce, the DUKWs were big and complicated mechanically but the hulls were pretty simple to build, was the AC supposed to fill a gap between the GPA and DUKW or was it a replacement/competitor for the GPA?
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Re: 4 x 4 Aqua Cheetah amphibious

Post by Ian Grieve » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:46 pm

Fellas

I have been away for several days and great to see where the page has gone.

Charles LaCroix was with Ford Public Relations and charged to write the Ford at War history. Jim, I recall you telling me in Kansas City in 2000 to be aware of the errors in the Ford history and I very quickly saw all you had said.

A chronology of production and testing is as follows;

** May 27, 1941, Pilot # 1 Aqua Cheetah was first water tested on the Niagara River at Grand Island Bridge, Buffalo
** October 19, 1941, Marmon-Herrington QMC4 Project started.
** November 24, 1941, Model # 2 Aqua Cheetah (batch of 6) launched.
** December 18, 1941, Ford Pilot # 1 started.
** February 4, 1942, Ford Pilot # 2 started.
** February 10, 1942, Ford Pilot # 1 completed.
** February 17, 1942, Ford # 1 Pilot GPA tested at Ypsilanti, Michigan.
** March 7, 1942, Ford Pilot # 1 delivered.
** March 9, 1942, Marmon-Herrington QMC-4 project complete.
** March 25, 1942, Ford Pilot # 3 started.
** March 27, 1942, Ford Pilot # 2 completed.
** March 30, 1942, Ford Pilot # 2 demonstration in surf at Camp Story, Virginia.
** April 1, 1942, Ford Pilot # 2 delivered.
** April 14, 1942, Ford Pilot # 3 demonstration at Fort Belvoir, Virginia.
** April 15, 1942, NDRC requested to initiate DUKW project.
** April 30, 1942, Yellow Truck and Coach Manufacturing Coy requested to build DUKW.
** May 5, 1942, Ford Pilot # 3 delivered.
** June 1, 1942, Model # 3 Aqua Cheetah launched.
** June 13, 1942, Approx date of Pilot DUKW test.
** September, 1942, Standard GPA rolls off assembly line.

Official correspondence and documents sometimes differ a day or two on dates, however, the above are fairly reliable.

Ian


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