Very odd rear brake problem

1945 - 196*, Willys CJ series, questions, discussions, regarding anything related to the post war jeep.®
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Bob Bell
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Re: Very odd rear brake problem

Post by Bob Bell » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:58 pm

I have already swapped brake drums from side to side, plus substituted my one spare one. No difference.
Bob Bell

1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.


Bruce W
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Re: Very odd rear brake problem

Post by Bruce W » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:00 pm

The noise goes away when the lining is clean, and then comes back?
When brake linings are contaminated with brake fluid or oil, the heating/cooling cycles caused by using the brakes drives the offending fluid deep into the lining, all the way to the shoe. There is no way you can clean all of that fluid or oil out of the lining, not with spray brake cleaner, not with alcohol, not with any commercial cleaning solvent, not even with soaking them in gasoline and burning them as my grandfather used to do. All you can do is clean the surface, then when you heat the lining up, the oil or fluid from deeper in the lining comes to the surface. I know you think that they are "squeaky clean" now, but if they've ever been contaminated, they are not.
I have also seen drums that were soaked with oil, and even though they were cleaned very well, when they got hot, oil would come from the pores of the cast iron and cause problems.
Something in your jeeps past that you don't know about could be causing your problem. BW
G Trp 2nd Sqdrn 3d Armored Cavalry Ft. Lewis 1970-71. 43GPW(Sarge?) 47CJ2A(Teddy) 47CJ2A(Rusty) 47CJ2A(Zak) 48CJ2A(Lefty) 48CJ2A(Uncle Linden) 53CJ3B(Bulldog) 88XJ(Pluto) NE CO

Bob Bell
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Re: Very odd rear brake problem

Post by Bob Bell » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:44 am

Once again thanks for all the great suggestions and interest.
A couple of preliminary points. These linings went onto the jeep about two or three years ago. There was no problem until about a year ago, or whenever this post started (June 2016). I have had the drums off countless times since then, and at no point have the linings been contaminated with either grease or brake fluid. So I really can't see how that could be the problem.
The jeep is a daily driver. Sometimes it squeals, sometimes it doesn't. I'd say the ratio is about 65-70% squeal, about 30-35% quiet. On the first one or two brake applications the offending wheel will 'lock' before the other. That suggests a still sticky wheel cylinder on the other side. That cylinder was honed, pistons cleaned and rubbers replaced some months ago. All cylinders, including the master were new as of 2-3 years ago.
Having said all of that, I think I may well end up replacing the linings, the wheel cylinders and have the drums turned.
I just hate to replace things willy-nilly just to see if the problem goes away.
Bob
Bob Bell

1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.

Rus Curtis
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Re: Very odd rear brake problem

Post by Rus Curtis » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:32 pm

Bob,
I had to go back and read the entire thread. What a saga. I noted where you had identified a sticky cylinder and fixed it. You swapped multiple drums but always the left rear squeals. You're now considering going through and replacing additional components.

I'd like to suggest that you swap the shoes from left to right. It would be interesting to learn if the squeal stays on the driver's side or moves to the passenger side. If it moves, it would seem as if the shoes are causing it - regardless of how new or how much material remains. If it stays on the driver's side then along with the multiple drum swaps, you can also eliminate the shoes as a suspect.
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Re: Very odd rear brake problem

Post by artificer » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:42 pm

I doubt it is lining material & smart thinking Rus. 6 pages is a lot & most needs culling.
Never start spending money on a wing & a prayer is my philosophy & customers used to love us for that.

Also what are the brake lining wear patterns like on both sides?
There could be an indication of an adjustment issue, if we only knew.
Are all drums the same ID?
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: Very odd rear brake problem

Post by Bob Bell » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:07 am

I took Rus Curtis' advice and swapped the brake shoes from one side to the other. Big difference! The rear driver side wheel still locks up when first using the vehicle, and still squeals. After a couple of brake applications, the vehicle stops quickly, in a straight line, and .... SILENTLY.

Thanks for the suggestion Rus. I am going to live with the initial sticky cylinder and squeal, and see how it is in a couple of months.

Bob
Bob Bell

1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.

Bob Bell
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Re: Very odd rear brake problem

Post by Bob Bell » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:16 am

A PS to my last post in answer to Artificer.
The linings are as new, with no perceptible wear patterns. I don't have a gauge big enough to measure the drums, but I did show them to the brake shop around the corner, and the guy there said they were in pretty decent shape.
Luc's comments re the behavior of hot linings versus cold ones are well taken, and I think that if the problem worsens I will follow the course he suggests. As of now, I hate to chuck out perfectly good linings.
Thanks fellers,
Bob
Bob Bell

1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.

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Re: Very odd rear brake problem

Post by Rus Curtis » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:34 am

Bob Bell wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:07 am
... and see how it is in a couple of months.

Bob
Sounds like a good plan! Hope this works!! Let us know!
Rus Curtis
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Re: Very odd rear brake problem

Post by Joe Gopan » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:39 am

Do not discount the effects of "brake shoe dust", it will cause grabbing. An air hose is an easy cure. The dust does not have to be greasy to cause problems.
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Re: Very odd rear brake problem

Post by Bob Bell » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:20 am

I do indeed have an air hose, and have cleaned the dust off VERY THOROUGHLY !!!
Bob
Bob Bell

1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.

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Re: Very odd rear brake problem

Post by artificer » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:19 am

Joel wrote:An air hose is an easy cure.
Really? NOT!
https://www.mesothelioma.com/asbestos-e ... chanic.htm
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

Bob Bell
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Re: Very odd rear brake problem

Post by Bob Bell » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:30 am

As I have said on so many occasions in this long, long post, these are almost brand new linings, and thus contain no asbestos. The drums and backing plates have been off several times over the last 15 years, and been THOROUGHLY DECONTAMINATED, and primed and painted. I'm not sure just when new linings were asbestos free, but I'm pretty sure it was over twenty years ago? Perhaps more?
I am very comfortable using an air hose on any part of my jeep. I use a good quality mask and eye protection while doing so.
I am more concerned about the air quality of city living, quite frankly.
Bob
Bob Bell

1946 CJ2A 36116
Have owned dozens of flat fenders over the years including 1945 CJ2A 10011 which I sold in 2002.
First 4WD was an Austin Champ in 1965, and then a GPW UK license number HRO 443, sold in 1974.

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Re: Very odd rear brake problem

Post by Joe Gopan » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:00 pm

"Brake shoe dust" was suggested as a possible cause for grabbing brakes. Asbestos was not mentioned.
Too bad I could not be there with your Jeep and looking over your shoulders. Am sure it would not take long to solve the problem.
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
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Re: Very odd rear brake problem

Post by artificer » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:13 pm

Doesn't matter what kind of dust....blowing it around in the presence of humans or animals is not recommended.
This is common sense stuff!
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: Very odd rear brake problem

Post by Joe Gopan » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:23 pm

And what's your suggestion, John, quarantine the Jeep?
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
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COL. BRUNO BROOKS (ARMY MOTORS) IS MY HERO


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