Outlier Disc Brake Conversion

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW modifications, sugestions, and ideas, official MWO's and unofficial WWII field mods NO EBAY or COMMERCIAL SALES.
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Re: Outlier Disc Brake Conversion

Post by gearhead » Tue May 13, 2014 11:31 am

Nice conversion, i prefer to keep my antiques original.
Nothing wrong with upgrade, specially if driven daily, I have converted many jeeps to front and four wheel disc, I use the Blazer mounts and CJ7 rotors and GM calipers on the front, also cheap and plentiful..
As far as running the larger wheel cylinders on the rear, will work fine, you may need to adjust the proportioning of the system to keep the rear wheels from locking up.
70-80% of your stopping power is the front brakes anyway.
For many years the only replacement cylinders were the larger ones.

Short answer, yes you can use the front cylinders on the rear.

Ed 8)
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Re: Outlier Disc Brake Conversion

Post by pkozak1 » Tue May 13, 2014 8:40 pm

Good evening Outlier, I have not gotten an email or pm back as thst is unusual on the G. Can you try again. My email is pkozak1@rochester.rr.com if this doesn't work again I will just post my cell number. That is pkozak1 as in the number 1 Have already located all the other parts for the conversion just need your help with the brackets Sir.

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Re: Outlier Disc Brake Conversion

Post by Outlier » Tue May 13, 2014 10:03 pm

pkozak1,
I just resent an email to you... turns out I hit reply to the original last week and it went to a different email than the one you posted. Hopefully I get back in touch with you through that!
1943 GPW 121189
Engine #66098

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Re: Outlier Disc Brake Conversion

Post by pkozak1 » Wed May 14, 2014 9:22 am

Got it!, now to contact the "G" and find out why I can not receive personal messages.

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Re: Outlier Disc Brake Conversion

Post by Raymond S. Meldrum » Thu May 22, 2014 8:15 am

I'm testing this mod, with Outlier's help, on a newly rebuilt M-38A1. The rear axle is somewhat different than the MB/GPW, so I am hoping things go well. In a best case scenario I'm hoping the 16" postwar wheel may clear the caliper without having to use new wheel studs. I am just finishing purchasing all the parts and planning the installation mid-June. I will forward installation pics, notes and my costs using new parts from partsdeal.com to Outlier, he can post them if he wishes.

BTW; I got to drive a jeep modified with this conversion, the difference in the drum vs the disc is truly remarkable! If you drive your mv a lot, you'll dig this conversion. For me its part safety and part less maintenance hassle, keeping me from adjusting brakes every few months and the always annoying eventual brake bleed/leak.

Peace
Raymond S. Meldrum
Owner-American Patrol; Cap and Canvas Company
West Jordan, Utah 84084
E-Mail; apcogear@msn.com


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Re: Outlier Disc Brake Conversion

Post by pkozak1 » Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:43 am

This is really a cheap modification. I figure it to be about $200.00 an axle if you have to go with new calipers without a core ($30.00 per caliper / loaded with mounting bracket). I have bought everything for the rear axle and mounted it already. I would suggest drilling the stud holes in the rotors out to 9/16 to give a lose fit going on, it will center up and tighten up around the hub. I had a hard time getting them on over the studs and figure if they go on that hard then after a few years, they won't come off easy at all. other then that all is easy and cheap, just the way I like them.

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Re: Outlier Disc Brake Conversion

Post by artificer » Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:37 pm

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=145811&p=968979&hi ... on#p968979

Image
Image
Image

Not trying to steal anyone's thunder or perceived proprietary rights [LOL] but this has all been done & documented on the G before. Just do a search Suzuki disc brakes [click on link above].

In fact Ron @ one point in time was going to sell them & had samples, but there was a lack of demand. [the pictures below were I recollect going to be his pricing].
John Tussing in RENO NV @ Waterjet Inc 775 853 8803 is listed in the above link & the prices should be about 1/2 to 1/3 that listed below [just pay with a credit card]. This Reno facility is where to get the perfect mirror image waterjetted adapters & spacer plates very inexpensively [spacers are only needed if one has combat wheels].
There is no need for the spacer? washers that are shown in the current Outlier pic's, with this arrangement. Plus do not use old hoses but get them new with correct fittings from the likes of Parker Hannifen + one of the pics shows a hose going through a metal fitting on the top of the swivel pin housing.
This is dangerous & the rear hose setup looks very convoluted with more fittings than needed by trying to use an old hose?

Image
Image

Bazza....there is no need to use any booster with the original master cylinder, pedal force is actually lower with these discs on all 4 [& probably 2].
The brakes are @ least twice probably 3 times as good as Jeep drums adjusted properly. You do need to remove the residual pressure valve in the original master cylinder.
Last edited by artificer on Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: Outlier Disc Brake Conversion

Post by Outlier » Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:32 pm

You are right, this is a common conversion theme :) Thanks for linking the 2009 thread, it does have good info.

John, I apologize for hurting your feelings by revisiting the procedure. In most other threads like that one, even on other flat fender sites, I found it difficult to nail down clear instructions. Theres always a lot of theory discussion and sometimes bitter arguing by the experts. **please, I'm not pointing any fingers if you feel you are the expert.** So my purpose was to consolidate an approach for people who want a step-by-step. Therefore, this is a writeup of the method I took, start to finish, laid out as simply as I could make it.

If anyone else finds good disc conversion write-ups, please link them as well! Thats would be cool, rather than piecing together data from several approaches, It could all be in one spot. Anyway... I cant say anything authoritative about artificers hoses/brackets/spacers etc because I didnt use them.

artificer is right about wanting to emphasize the hoses - dont use your old flex hoses! My instructions say to get new ones made, with the SAE fitting on one end and the banjo on the other. Any hydraulic hose & rubber place will do it for you.

The rear hose 90-degree fitting is optional, I dont have it on mine because I was able to bend my hard line without kinks. Its up to the guy doing it if he wants that fitting or not.
Last edited by Outlier on Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.
1943 GPW 121189
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Re: Outlier Disc Brake Conversion

Post by artificer » Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:53 pm

Without reading the recent re-write of the earlier How to....Suzuki Disc Brakes....too thoroughly:

We are all interested in doing things SAFELY & right the first time.
The current re-write is re-miss/missing in some IMPORTANT SAFETY AREAS.

If that 90* fitting on the rear brake line is swinging in mid air, as it seems, the metal brake line will eventually fatigue & break, then you will have no brakes, not better ones. Flex lines need to be secured to the caliper, axle or frame @ BOTH ends with the proper fitting/spring clips.
The front flexible brake line, as currently fitted, will wear through & eventually fail. It should not be fitted as it is depicted in the picture.

The RPV [residual pressure valve] needs to be removed from the standard Jeep master cylinder otherwise the brakes will always be dragging.
Discs brakes in general DO NOT use a RPV. Disc pistons DO NOT have any return mechanism unlike brake shoes that retract the wheel cylinder pistons by using heavy return springs. Why do you think in master cylinders with front disc & rear drum the rear circuit line has the RPV fitted but the front circuit does not?

A proportioning valve is absolutely essential & not optional or
Outlier more than once wrote:needed in theory but in practice not missed.
Why are rear discs/calipers/linings considerably smaller on standard motor vehicles, in addition to a proportioning valve?
Why do standard Jeep drum brakes have a smaller rear wheel cylinder diameter?

By fitting 4 equal size discs/calipers/linings without reducing rear application force by 50/60% you will be getting equal braking on all 4 wheels.
This will result in rear wheels locking up before the front, doing 360* cart wheels & loss of control on heavy brake application or normal application in M+S conditions [wet or snow covered surfaces]. NDT tyres & the results will be worse.

Try making an insurance claim & see how far you get!

Do not press or just bash out the wheels studs with a hammer unless you have removed/relieved the swage first.
The hub will be damaged & new studs will not fit tightly or correctly. Ask the question 'why are some of the old studs welded in place'?
Because someone removed them before using a press or BFH?
Done properly the new studs will not be out of alignment or need bashing with a hammer so the rotor will fit on.
We are talking the WW2 setup, not later models with outside mounted drums, where the studs 'may' come out more easily.
Outlier wrote:including some pretty bitter arguing by the experts
Now that is drawing a very long bow indeed....there were no 'experts' arguing/commenting.
All I could find on reflection was ONE non expert purist from the UK, who objected to the idea of disc brakes being fitted to an old Jeep.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: Outlier Disc Brake Conversion

Post by Outlier » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:17 am

Great, thanks for contributing guys. I have edited the first post to reflect your suggestions.

*Edit Feb 2015:
Good grief John, I totally agreed with you that the THEORY of the valve was good. Peace. I've been driving my jeep everywhere and in all weather for over 4 years without it... (IN PRACTICE)... and this writeup is a step by step of what I have done.
Early this month I finally installed the magic valve! Guess what, it works great, exactly as expected. Everybody, please note the instructions now reflect this and the offending phrase is gone!
Here is the valve, moments before being tucked happily up inside the rear cross member...

Image
Last edited by Outlier on Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1943 GPW 121189
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Re: Outlier Disc Brake Conversion

Post by Raymond S. Meldrum » Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:41 pm

I just finished the front axle portion of my M38A1 disc brake conversion. I am happy to report that if using the standard 16" wheels used on M38A1 the wheel studs will not need to be changed out for longer ones. The factory studs seem to work just find and give an acceptable amount of clearance from the caliper to the inner wheel.

Peace
Raymond S. Meldrum
Owner-American Patrol; Cap and Canvas Company
West Jordan, Utah 84084
E-Mail; apcogear@msn.com

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Re: Outlier Disc Brake Conversion

Post by pkozak1 » Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:42 pm

As soon as I can figure out how to post a picture from my G4 phone,I will post of my rear axle conversion. I had to use two washers on each mounting bracket bolt in order to get the proper placement over the rotors. I think if the brackets were made out of 1/2 inch thick steel (thinnest material to use) instead of 3/8, they would be centered better, 5/8 although it may be over kill would center up perfect. Any ways, they are on and are great and if I had to shim with washers, so be it I still have a full bolt all the way through the mounting bracket bolt holes. Still better than adjusting drum brakes at four different adjustment points per wheel.

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Re: Outlier Disc Brake Conversion

Post by artificer » Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:53 pm

John wrote: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=148906&p=877563&hi ... sc#p861094
Fit all adapter plates except 1 (these are all offset toward the rear 1 hole index off vertical)...now fit (bolt) each caliper in turn to this unfitted plate.
You will note the bolts will protrude into where the rotor would run.
This bolt protrusion must be trimmed off all 8 bolts carefully with an angle grinder so as to be level with the caliper mount.
The brackets should be made from 0.5" NOT 0.375" or 0.625" material.
You shouldn't be using washers as shown in some earlier pictures [in THIS thread] because of bolts being too long or trying to centre the sliding caliper because the bracket is made from the wrong size material.
Rather as indicated in the earlier quote, the caliper bolts need to be trimmed slightly using an angle grinder so as not to protrude.
This trimming is done with the caliper frame bolted to the bracket & BEFORE the bracket is bolted to the axle.
Once the bolts are trimmed correctly the caliper is removed from the bracket then the bracket bolted to the axle, before starting the assembly process [use locktite on the re-fitted caliper mounting bolts].
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: Outlier Disc Brake Conversion

Post by Raymond S. Meldrum » Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:01 am

Hope you all can check this out.

Here is a short video of my m38A1 Disc Brake conversion advised and provided by Outlier. Installation was not to expensive (Under $200/axle) and was done in a few hours since I had accumulated all the parts previously. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=14 ... =2&theater

Jeep stops real quick and solid and straight. The vid show a little swerving only due to it being stopped on half paved and half gravel surface.

I'm digging this! No more brake adjusting or leaky wheel cylinders in my future!

Peace
Raymond S. Meldrum
Owner-American Patrol; Cap and Canvas Company
West Jordan, Utah 84084
E-Mail; apcogear@msn.com

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Re: Outlier Disc Brake Conversion

Post by artificer » Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:52 pm

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You may do better to post where it can be viewed by everyone who wishes....like photobucket or something else.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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